Page 6 | To think Zelenskyy needs to stop demanding a no fly zone

WilsonMilson · 2022-03-08T13:33:44+00:00

The war is awful, it’s heartbreaking to see what is happening in Ukraine. Zelenskyy has been exceptionally brave, but his current rhetoric that ‘until a no fly zone is put in place that every death is on NATO’ is reckless. A no fly zone means WW3. No one wins then, the whole world burns. He needs to stop blaming us for not getting into what would undoubtedly be a nuclear war with Russia. It is a terrible situation, but implementing a no fly zone would be crazy.

SilverDoe · 08/03/2022 15:29

Zelensky knew this would cause war-lives lost, cities flattened and yet he did it anyway.

He did it anyway?

kittensinthekitchen · 08/03/2022 15:31

@TristramBrandy

So this is Zelenskyy's fault?

DrSbaitso · 08/03/2022 15:33

@TristramBrandy

Ukraine asked to join NATO, despite assurances being given to Russia, when the USSR broke up, that it wouldn't.

Zelensky knew this would cause war-lives lost, cities flattened and yet he did it anyway.

He may have felt justified-maybe he was- but he knew what the price would be and, on behalf of his people, he went ahead.

He is not some plaster saint whose shit doesn't stink. He may not be the Devil Incarnate either. The point is he knew what would happen and he went ahead. He thought the price was worth paying. People in Ukraine are paying.

Now we know what will happen if NATO shoots down a Russian plane-so does Zelensky. He wants us to also feel that the price is worth paying, to join him. That's fine as long as we all know the price we will pay and decide it is worth it.

I don't think that the price is worth being unable to afford to heat my home, suffer food shortages, maybe my home being turned to rubble and-worse of all-the life of my children.

But then, I am one person and must go along with the majority but I hope and pray that the majority have looked at possible disastrous consequences with a clear eye before embarking on this path.

Once that first Russian plane is shot down by Nato then the balloon will go up and life changes forever.

"Zelensky knew this would cause war-lives lost, cities flattened and yet he did it anyway."

Did what?

MrsTerryPratchett · 08/03/2022 15:36

Ukraine asked to join NATO, despite assurances being given to Russia, when the USSR broke up, that it wouldn't.

The USSR broke up in 1991. Russia is now on a par with Brazil and South Korea in terms of economy. Everyone still seems to think they are a super power. Canada has a bigger economy FFS. Exactly how long does the entire world have to pander to a megalomaniac who believes his country is still important? Until his nukes fall to bits from lack of maintenance?

The Ukraine is a sovereign state whose people should be able to join NATO, the EU or the Power Rangers if they elect leaders who run on that platform. NATO aren't putting nukes in new NATO countries. Ukraine isn't a pawn or a buffer state or a negotiating position, it's a country in it's own right.

I understand there's realpolitik and I do understand we compromise. But that doesn't make it right, it makes it expedient. And expedience ended up with us in the Second WW as well. Negotiating with wannabe Napoleons doesn't work.

Clarabe1 · 08/03/2022 15:36

First off Ukraine are not at fault here. This is purely down to the actions of Putin invading a democratic country so if you buy into the narrative that Zelensky is at fault you are an idiot that is buying into Russian propaganda I understand why zelensky wants a no fly zone because so would we if it was our families and homes being bombed. Personally I think putin is using the nuclear card as blackmail to stop us from helping Ukraine. He has bitten off more than he can chew already from what I can see, however what the hell do I know? I leave it to minds more capable than mine to make them decisions.

TristramBrandy · 08/03/2022 15:36

Yes, that's right @SilverDoe

As soon as he, on behalf of his people, applied to join NATO he knew what the consequences would be and he went ahead anyway.

Not all Ukrainians agreed with him-some feel they are part of Russia-but he took a decision and went ahead. he couldn't ask every individual what they thought. He had to decide for them and that is what he did.

He was aware that Russia would react, He felt it was worth it and he took the decision. He is the leader-he decides and he did-that's his right. You do know that referendums aren't a thing in Ukraine.

He is also the one asking the rest of the world to have a no-fly zone. He also knows what the consequences of that will be. We have to decide if we want to join him and face the consequences too.

But I do hope people realise that the consequences of imposing a no fly zone won't be something we will watch on television. They will be something we live.

HeadPain · 08/03/2022 15:38

You can't blame him for trying to save his people and his country.

MrsTerryPratchett · 08/03/2022 15:39

As soon as he, on behalf of his people, applied to join NATO he knew what the consequences would be and he went ahead anyway.

You believe that Ukraine should NEVER be able to ask for what it wants, it's own self-determination, in perpetuity, because of 'assurances' (and there are debates about that) made 3 decades ago?

TristramBrandy · 08/03/2022 15:39

@kittensinthekitchen

It may not be his fault-he wants to join NATO but he knew there would be consequences and there are.

He also knows there will be consequences for the rest of the world if there is a NO Fly zone. He thinks that is justified and he may be able to convince our leaders that it is.

The point is there will be devasting consequences. Some of us will think it will be worth losing our homes and lives for and some of us won't.

grapewines · 08/03/2022 15:40

@incognitoforthisone

Zelenskyy is a world leader whose country and people are being obliterated by an appalling, corrupt and quasi-fascist regime. If the Russians reach Kyiv he will almost certainly be murdered. His job is to ask for whatever might save Ukraine, in as vocal and persistent manner as possible, even if he knows it's unlikely to happen.

You, in contrast, are a random person sitting at a computer on a website where people argue about whether you should wear pyjamas in the day time and which type of soap is more hygienic and why their best friend has fallen out with them.

I don't think you're really in a position to be pontificating on what Zelenskyy should or shouldn't be asking for, are you? Perhaps come back when you've been the leader of a country on the brink of a genocide.

This. Absolutely all of this.

MissConductUS · 08/03/2022 15:40

Setting up a no fly zone isn't as simple as people seem to think it is. To protect your own pilots you have to identify and attack the Russian anti-air defenses. That means killing Russians on the ground. You also have to put search and rescue forces in the area to rescue pilots who have ejected from damaged aircraft. That means Nato troops and helicopters on the ground in Ukraine, who have to be defended from Russian attacks.

It's much more of an escalation than the press is making it out to be.

MrsTerryPratchett · 08/03/2022 15:41

You do know that referendums aren't a thing in Ukraine.

They had one in 1991. And 2000.

If you meant they are a representative democracy rather than a direct one, I believe that's true. But they've elected representatives in favour of this as well.

Iamacatslave · 08/03/2022 15:43

@incognitoforthisone

Well said.

Clarabe1 · 08/03/2022 15:43

@TristramBrandy wow you really are doing Putins work for him aren’t you? It’s a sovereign states fault for trying to be self determined and not doing as a fascist dictator says? Next you will be saying it’s Polands fault they were invaded in 1939. Bought it on themselves eh? Let’s hope you never have the misfortune of living in a country that gets invaded by a hostile nation. What will you do beat yourself up because you seem to like victim blaming.

NotTerfNorCis · 08/03/2022 15:44

I get why Zelenskyy is demanding it, and I get why NATO can't grant it. Both are being reasonable in their own way.

Theluggage15 · 08/03/2022 15:44

Ukraine said back in 2010 they wouldn’t join NATO and Russia invaded anyway in 2014. It was after that invasion that they planned to join again because it was obvious Russia can’t be trusted.

Theluggage15 · 08/03/2022 15:45

So you’re talking crap Tristram.

Clarabe1 · 08/03/2022 15:45

If this is anyone fault (apart from Putin’s) it’s ours for demanding Ukraine did not have nuclear weapons.

NotTerfNorCis · 08/03/2022 15:47

Ukraine asked to join NATO, despite assurances being given to Russia, when the USSR broke up, that it wouldn't.

Zelensky knew this would cause war-lives lost, cities flattened and yet he did it anyway.

Of course, all countries must yield to threats from their more powerful neighbours. If they come to harm, they've only themselves to blame!

EsmaCannonball · 08/03/2022 15:47

It feels terrible and shaming and degrading to have a gun held to your head while your friend is being beaten to death before your eyes and is begging you for help. Sorry about the hurty feelings and everything but we have to own this feeling of shame because we have allowed this situation to happen. (Well, mainly our politicians and moneyed classes.) Ukraine is being destroyed for wanting to join the West and the West can't do too much about it. Own the discomfort.

As for World War 3, we have to hope that Ukraine wins this or that Putin's victory is a Pyrrhic one, because he clearly has bigger plans than just Ukraine. He definitely wants to turn Russia itself into a completely totalitarian regime.

WhatsGoingOn2022 · 08/03/2022 15:47