To think Zelenskyy needs to stop demanding a no fly zone

[WilsonMilson]

The war is awful, it’s heartbreaking to see what is happening in Ukraine. Zelenskyy has been exceptionally brave, but his current rhetoric that ‘until a no fly zone is put in place that every death is on NATO’ is reckless.

A no fly zone means WW3. No one wins then, the whole world burns. He needs to stop blaming us for not getting into what would undoubtedly be a nuclear war with Russia. It is a terrible situation, but implementing a no fly zone would be crazy.

Wars are expensive.putin needs to be choked financially with economic sanctions and businesses pulling out or closing in Russia

"Rather Be Vaporised Than Be a Coward" to directly quote @Clarabe1

Ha fucking ha!

@TristramBrandy

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

Feel better now @TristramBrandy? If it helps you to take it out on me then I am happy to help. I suggest if you are anxious then you go and throw darts at a picture of Putins face instead of stalking me. If WW3 happens it’s because of him not me posting on Mumsnet. I doubt world leaders are reading this thread.

@longwayoff

I heard an army person on the radio saying that a NATO exercise involving 150,000 troops was due to take place from last Sunday off the coast of Norway. Has this happened? Does anyone know? I found it both reassuring and alarming.

Yes as far as known, they are. I know there has been 4 Nato ships seen off the east coast of Scotland in the past days. I assume they are from this exercise as its reportedly connected to Norway.

Yes Operation Cold Response (held every second year) is going ahead at the moment.

This situation is very different to WWW1 and WWW2. Hitler was mad but he didn’t have nuclear weapons. I don’t think anyone is selfish in not wanting life on earth to come to an end.

@Dogsandbabies

Countries can close their airspace. But in the specific case do you think the Russian army will observe the closure?

Ukraine is asking NATO to be involved so that they police their skies and shoot down invading aircraft with NATO missiles. Which will escalate the war beyond Ukraine.

Of course Zelensky should keep asking for help. Even if it isn't possible he has a duty to his people to keep asking.

^^ This. Just this.

So this whole Zelensky started it (when Russia invaded years before he was elected) bollocks, does anyone even believe that? I mean, how thick would you have to be?

@incognitoforthisone

Zelenskyy is a world leader whose country and people are being obliterated by an appalling, corrupt and quasi-fascist regime. If the Russians reach Kyiv he will almost certainly be murdered. His job is to ask for whatever might save Ukraine, in as vocal and persistent manner as possible, even if he knows it's unlikely to happen.

You, in contrast, are a random person sitting at a computer on a website where people argue about whether you should wear pyjamas in the day time and which type of soap is more hygienic and why their best friend has fallen out with them.

I don't think you're really in a position to be pontificating on what Zelenskyy should or shouldn't be asking for, are you? Perhaps come back when you've been the leader of a country on the brink of a genocide.

Absolutely this 👏🏻👏🏻 Zelensky has the right to ask for whatever he wants, they need help, they are desperate. I'm sure he was impressed the the govt 'clap' this afternoon. If a no fly zone is out of the question, I understand the reservation, then NATO need to supply the Ukraine with weapons and planes to be able to do it themselves. Our government who have enjoyed the trappings of Russian money for years, now need to step up and provide whatever support they can to Ukraine and its people. It's quite embarrassing

If/when the Russians control the country they will:
Move out most of the Ukrainians & move in Russian supporters than have a "democratic vote" to show they have de-nazified & freed inhabitants (note they have to tried to block escape to west & allowed (maybe) escape to Russia & Belorussia. Most likely many may be internally exiled to the extremes of the Soviet empire (aka Siberia ect)
Going on the extensive history of how Russia has done this in the past -they are than likely to "remove & prosecute & imprison" ALL opposition all military officers educationalist etc etc. They & their families will "disappear".
Putin has a nice habit of making opposition disappear permanently - (think toxins etc) he is following his predecessors example
During ww2 when the Nazi's advanced into Poland & the country was split between them & the USSR many of the leading figures disappeared in the Russian sector they only admitted quite recently that they were responsible (read about Katyn massacre) they also exiled many families for decades in Gulags about the same time from the Baltic States. Hungry & Czechoslovakia had uprisings put down & of course many of the Muslim Countries under their rule suffered & consider how they behaved in the Middle East & in Afghanistan.
I think he is desperate - & when - if they control & overtake Ukraine what's Putin's next move? Rumania? Poland? Estonia Latvia or Lithuania?

Zelensky is a brave man. A PROPER leader of men and isn't too proud to beg for help for his countrymen .
He has my admiration and respect !

We should not enforce a no-fly zone with NATO shooting down Russian planes, of course we shouldn't. But I can't get angry at Zelenskyy for asking for this when he is desperate in a way that thankfully nobody on here in the UK will ever really have to be desperate.

@abitbesotted Of course he's going "crying to America", his country's being invaded by Russia, why shouldn't he? Bloody hell.

*Fucking hell. 'Emotional blackmail'? He's not some annoying on-off boyfriend you're trying to persuade your mate to dump. HIS COUNTRY IS LITERALLY ON THE BRINK OF BEING WIPED OUT and you're suggesting he's being selfish?

This site is beyond parody sometimes*

This, with big brass knobs on ?

@Ionsion

I’m sick of all the whining about implementing a no fly zone. I don’t want a WW3 or a nuclear war thank you very much. Of course Zelensky would ask for NATO to get involved and for them to enforce a no fly zone. I honestly think if this happened then NATO would end up shooting down a Russian plane and that WW3 would ensue. China would then have no option but to get involved because they have an agreement with Russia. We will then find ourselves dragged into a war like we have never seen before. People would be forced to fight via conscription and we would never know if and when that button would be pressed. There won’t be a refugee crisis because everyone (apart from a few high powered individuals and their staff holed up in bunkers) will be dead. How is this so hard to understand??

You'd have had your tongue right up Hitlers arse last century, just to look after yourself!!! Whining ffs!!!!

@mumwon

If/when the Russians control the country they will: Move out most of the Ukrainians & move in Russian supporters than have a "democratic vote" to show they have de-nazified & freed inhabitants (note they have to tried to block escape to west & allowed (maybe) escape to Russia & Belorussia. Most likely many may be internally exiled to the extremes of the Soviet empire (aka Siberia ect) Going on the extensive history of how Russia has done this in the past -they are than likely to "remove & prosecute & imprison" ALL opposition all military officers educationalist etc etc. They & their families will "disappear". Putin has a nice habit of making opposition disappear permanently - (think toxins etc) he is following his predecessors example During ww2 when the Nazi's advanced into Poland & the country was split between them & the USSR many of the leading figures disappeared in the Russian sector they only admitted quite recently that they were responsible (read about Katyn massacre) they also exiled many families for decades in Gulags about the same time from the Baltic States. Hungry & Czechoslovakia had uprisings put down & of course many of the Muslim Countries under their rule suffered & consider how they behaved in the Middle East & in Afghanistan. I think he is desperate - & when - if they control & overtake Ukraine what's Putin's next move? Rumania? Poland? Estonia Latvia or Lithuania?

None of this will happen.

He can't control and he cannot win. If he could he would have sone so by now.

This is not going his way and it will be the end of him, the only question is how badly he will sting before he goes.

I support Zelenskiy 100% to ask, beg, plead for, demand whatever he feels his country needs. That's his job right now and he deserves enormous respect for staying put and doing it when so many would run. Him asking doesn't mean we have to do it if it will make things worse. But from his perspective, how much worse can it get for his people? He's doing his job, and damn well.

@incognitoforthisone

Zelenskyy is a world leader whose country and people are being obliterated by an appalling, corrupt and quasi-fascist regime. If the Russians reach Kyiv he will almost certainly be murdered. His job is to ask for whatever might save Ukraine, in as vocal and persistent manner as possible, even if he knows it's unlikely to happen.

You, in contrast, are a random person sitting at a computer on a website where people argue about whether you should wear pyjamas in the day time and which type of soap is more hygienic and why their best friend has fallen out with them.

I don't think you're really in a position to be pontificating on what Zelenskyy should or shouldn't be asking for, are you? Perhaps come back when you've been the leader of a country on the brink of a genocide.

👏👏👏👏

China does not have a mutual defence treaty with Russia.

@Notcontent

This situation is very different to WWW1 and WWW2. Hitler was mad but he didn’t have nuclear weapons. I don’t think anyone is selfish in not wanting life on earth to come to an end.

Some posters on here do though.

Reading through this thread is giving me a headache. No, I don't want escalation, no I don't want nuclear war - although I wish to God we had done any of this when they took Crimea - but seeing people who think they're intelligent blithely repeating "well they're Russian speaking so they should be part of Russia"?! I don't think it's a Godwin's law offence to point out that "they speak our language so they should belong to our country" is the exact same logic Hitler used with regards to the Sudetenland.

@Choppingonions

He's facing death and his country is razed to the ground. It's hardly the time for him to feel moderate. He may not expect to get it but may be applying pressure to NATO generally so they don't watch Russia use up all their weapons at Ukraine's expense.

Yes it's negotiation. You ask for huge things even if you know you won't get them.... this makes it more likely people will offer more of something else to compensate.

Or it could just be sincere desperation to rescue his country.

@LostMyLastHatfulOfWords

WWIII would mean that all around would be in danger of death - that land would be laid waste - that buildings would be blasted out of recognition... so EXACTLY what is happening in the cities of the Ukraine right now.

To the people there, WWIII has begun.

Our help (with no fly zone - military aid) might help them end it before everyone is dead and everything destroyed.

We are afraid that helping them would bring WWIII to our doorsteps too. We don't want Ukraine to lose - but we don't want our cities and our people to suffer as they are doing.

You’re quite right. It’s a very difficult decision to make. It could be argued that if decades ago, if Germany wasn’t allowed to invade so-called red countries, they might not have been as bolstered by their expansionist policies. But the value hindsight is a powerful thing.

then NATO need to supply the Ukraine with weapons and planes to be able to do it themselves.

You mean as they have been doing?

Surely the term "genocide" should be reserved for the fortunately rarely-attempted extermination of an entire people (as the Germans attempted to do to Jewish people, and the Turks to the Armenians). Putin is surely attempting to take Ukrainians and call them Russian, which is quite different.