To think most people treat friends like they're disposable?

[IcecreamOnTheDaily]

I'm a person who has always valued really close friendships. Regardless of whether I've been single or not, my close friends are extremely important to me and I'm willing to put in the work to be consistent and reliable and there when they need me - if I'm particularly busy I'll still ensure to check in when I can and be there even if it's not super-convenient for me. Some of my friends I consider closer than my own family.

We often get told relationships take work and effort, but I'm finding increasingly that people don't apply this principle to friendships. It seems like a lot of people only want friendships on their own terms and purely at their own convenience - talk to me only when I feel like it, I'll reply only when I feel like it. It's socially acceptable to distance yourself from friends and fade them out of your life without any explanation, and if you feel upset at this, you're labelled 'clingy'. We're seemingly not allowed to have any expectations from friends, let alone articulate them. I find this especially strange given that many friendships last far longer than romantic relationships and our close friends may know us just as well, if not better, than our partners!

Of course, the same principle applies to friendships as romantic relationships, that no one should put up with toxic or abusive behaviour. I also get that people change and circumstances can impact our ability to be present as friends. But I do struggle with the idea that there is zero commitment in friendships and that people are happy to let them 'drift' or distance themselves without any explanation, even where people have been in each other's lives for decades. I have a best friend who is currently distancing herself from me without explanation and it is bloody hurtful, just as hurtful as previous break-ups even.

@bluedodecagon

For me it’s about what you assume about your friends.

If I have a friend who’s out of touch for a few weeks, do I assume that she is a bitch, she hates me, she’s a nasty person, she’s selfish, she’s two-faced, she’s talking behind my back, she’s turned on me or do I assume that she is having a bad week?

Lots of people on mumsnet have no friends because they assume the former. They take everything personally and assume the absolute worst of their so-called friends.

And the irony with the ghosting is that mumsnet encourages people to ghost i.e. go low or no contact with friends all the time! If there’s a misunderstanding, they insist that you should never clarify anything or ask for an explanation. You should just start distancing yourself from them! But those same people get so angry if they are ghosted. It’s nuts.

Also this in spades.

People catastrophise this massively on here. Someone goes off the radar for a couple of weeks so suddenly they are out to get you and never to be trusted again? Not likely. Much more likely they are just busy and have other stuff going on.

The "Go no contact" response does not allow for any nuance or discussion or reconciliation. Its using a hammer to crack a nut.

When I have friends who are single and get into relationships, I’m happy for them. I accept that they may be more busy but I don’t begrudge them because I want them to be happy. I’m not their jailer.

@thepeopleversuswork

Agreed! I think a lot of people are lonely because they drive people off. Their expectations are so high, they are continually disappointed and they have so much anger and vitriol towards former friends. It’s too much!

@bluedodecagon

When I have friends who are single and get into relationships, I’m happy for them. I accept that they may be more busy but I don’t begrudge them because I want them to be happy. I’m not their jailer.

You'd be surprised how many people take this as a personal sleight.

It might sound cynical but a surprisingly large amount of female friendships basically crumble when one or both of the friends has a significant other. It's as if the premise of the relationship is for the friends to be perpetually single and any change to this is perceived as an insult.

Hmmm, not sure.

I agree that friendships need investment- in time, emotions etc. But as I've got older I've learnt to accept that not every friendship, not even every good friendship, last forever. Some are just for a season and that's not necessarily a failure. And I'm ok with that.

[quote Erinyes]@EmmaH2022, if they’ve said ‘I need space’, then that takes precedence over my feelings about it, surely. If people have stuff going on that they want me to know about, or want my input in, they’ll say so. I don’t cluck about, signalling my availability.[/quote]
You said "without explanation" so I thought you meant they didn't say "I need space".

@MRex

we all see friends as something to be prioritised on an equal level to partners That's way too strong for most people surely! I would be really shocked if DH considered a friend's desire for company at an equivalent level to spending time with me and DS, and vice versa. I don't share a home with my friends, I don't share a child with my friends, I don't share the love for our wider families with my friends, I am not their emergency contact and nor are they mine, they won't inherit my estate nor I theirs... There is in no way an equivalence between a friend and the one person you select to be a life partner, who is my actual closest and dearest friend.

Maybe for you, but I’ve had this discussion with several friends and we all agree our friends occupy just as important a space in our lives as our partners, even those in live-in relationships and the friend with a kid! Some of us don’t have or want children so our friends may well end up inheriting our estate - a couple of us have an agreement to be each other’s power of attorney should something awful happen to us. There’s no intensity or obligation about it, nobody is pissed off if we don’t hear from someone for a while or if they need to take some time out, we all just genuinely enjoy talking and each other’s company and feel that we’ve got room in our lives for friends, family and partners on an equal level. I don’t think that’s that extreme.

I’ve actually only got one mate who’s been in my life consistently since I was 13. Other friendships have ebbed and flowed and others have gone completely so I agree that most people just can’t be arsed to put in the effort. I’ve faded a couple of people out when it became too much like hard work to meet up but made some good new friends in the last 2-3 years so it’s swings and roundabouts.

My husband had a fair few friends when I first met him ( 35 years ago ) but as the years rolled on he lost touch with many of them and as people moved away etc we all drifted, even with social media nobody made the effort and neither did he , to be fair.
I have two very good friends I've known all my life and I make an effort to see them , but it's not all the time , sometimes only a few times a year. I've made friends over the years , but people don't always want to keep in touch etc
It is what it is. Life evolves and moves on and so do people and friends.

we accept romantic relationships aren't always going to be fun or enjoyable and require work and effort - why do we not accept this for friendship

If I was in a romantic relationship with someone who always wanted me to reply to all their messages straight away, and couldn't handle me needing a certain amount of time to myself, we would not be compatible and I would end it. Or he would end it. Either way, we wouldn't be right for each other. I would feel suffocated and they would feel neglected and neither of us would be happy.

I have friends whose partners message them multiple times a day and who would feel sad if they weren't spending every weekend together - and that's fine for them, because they feel the same way. But my partner and I just aren't like that. We are very happy and love each other very much but we both like time to ourselves and would only message if we had something specific/funny/important to say. And that's why we are happy.

Exactly the same applies to a friendship.

You keep saying people 'want friendship on their terms' (ie less contact) but you also want friendship on your terms (ie lots of contact), so I think it's just a matter of finding friends who are on the same page as you with regards to what makes an enjoyable friendship. I know you are feeling hurt and I do get that, but I think you just need to realise that people are not selfish or lazy because they don't want loads of contact with you; they just see things differently to you. You seem to be really struggling to see that this isn't black and white and that just because you feel a certain way about friendships, that doesn't mean other people must be wrong for feeling differently.

People are describing you as 'clingy' because to them, that is exactly what you are. You don't feel that you're clingy for wanting a high level of contact and that's fine, because you have a different definition of what 'clingy' is. But be aware that your friend doesn't feel that she's selfish or lazy, either - and that is also fine. Nobody is in the wrong.

I have low maintenance friends in my life.
It's not that I'm too busy, I love my solitude and I moved away from them to another state.
I have 2 friends I would bury a body for. One from high school
and one for 40 years. ( I'm 74)
We catch up with long phone calls maybe 2-3 x a year. Out of the blue we text and say.." Just thinking of you..and they do the same."
I couldn't handle a friendship that required " Obligation.."
One year for Christmas I said to my BFF since birth actually..." Aren't you glad that we don't feel obligated to buy each other Christmas gifts? We both laughed our butts off.
For my birthday she sent me a text " I love you so much I didn't even get you a birthday card!"
That's my idea of friendship.
( I got a tribe of family that fullfil the rest)

You keep saying people 'want friendship on their terms' (ie less contact) but you also want friendship on your terms (ie lots of contact), so I think it's just a matter of finding friends who are on the same page as you with regards to what makes an enjoyable friendship.

This is spot on. A lot of these issues are generated by fundamental incompatibilities in what people want from their friendships, as opposed to failures on the part of the friend.

We are comfortable with the notion of compatibility in romantic relationships but for some reason people don't have these discussions about friendships when it absolutely applies here too.

I would feel unbearably stifled by a friendship with someone who demanded multiple messages back and forth a day or long phone calls, or wanted a commitment to meet once a week or whatever. I've had friendships like that in the past and after a while it just becomes unbearably draining. I used to have a friend who would want to speak on the phone for an hour and a half at a time once a fortnight or so. I ended up basically ghosting her because I just didn't have the space and time in my life for it. But for some people that's normal and desirable and they would feel sleighted if they didn't get it.

We need to get a bit better about communication with friends about what our expectations are I think. And also to learn to stop taking compatibility differences so personally.

I totally get it what your saying. Maybe your not meeting the right people.

Nothing in life is permanent, everything is temporary. People, places, jobs, friendship nothing stays the same forever. Once you accept that , it feels less personal when we move on or other people do. She has decided to invest in her new romance and unfortunately for you it means she doesn’t have the time she used to for you. You are obviously heart broken / and I am sorry for your anguish. I think you could benefit from therapy - you may be investing too much in other people.

@Inkyblue123

Nothing in life is permanent, everything is temporary. People, places, jobs, friendship nothing stays the same forever. Once you accept that , it feels less personal when we move on or other people do. She has decided to invest in her new romance and unfortunately for you it means she doesn’t have the time she used to for you. You are obviously heart broken / and I am sorry for your anguish. I think you could benefit from therapy - you may be investing too much in other people.

Do you see divorce and bereavement the same way?

That's not me being facetious, it's an honest question.

@EmmaH2022

I can't speak for @Inkyblue123, but from my point of view:

I don't think marriage is an exact comparison with this because obviously marriage is a formal, financial arrangement as opposed to an informal one. Dissolving a marriage is a lot more complicated than ending a friendship. (Marriage is problematic for me for these very reasons but that's another matter).

But this post resonated with me because I think assuming that everything is temporary is actually healthier. If you assume things are temporary you give people back their freedom and remove their obligation. So when people give you their time and love its given freely rather than something they feel obliged to do, and therefore worth so much more.

I also think that people do overinvest in other people. That doesn't mean other people don't have value. But a lot of the problems women in particular have in life come from overinvesting in people, particularly in men and in their expectation of family. By investing less you are less likely to be disappointed and when people come good its pure upside.

Relationships based on a grudging sense of obligation and history with nothing more are not a recipe for joy.

I have seen and had some experience of treating friends like their disposable.
I have a friend who lives about 20 miles away from me. Up until recently she was working long hours and in is involved in relationship with a man who lives 2 hours away.
Last summer I asked her to meet me as we had not seen each other in a while. She immediately brushed me off with a very poor excuse. Yet a few weeks later she rang me and thought I mind her 2 small dogs for a week when she went away with her boyfriend. I said to her sorry I had plans made that week and could not do this. Since then she has had to deal with a few issues and I have been there for her once it suites me.
Another friend of mine was very friendly with this lady for a few years. My friend had helped her through some really hard times. She gave her some money and paid for a holiday as she knew she needed a brake. When COVID started this lady said she was going to stay at home as much as possible yet she my friend ran into her with her new best friend in a local town. My friend had a major birthday last summer and same lady told her she would call to see her. Then give her a load of excuses why she could not do this. My friend did not even get a card in the post off her. Even now she just gets the odd message from her via text or what's app. My friend has decided at this stage to arrange a meeting with this lady and unless she makes the effort to meet her she not going to be around any longer for her.
One of my friends is single and over the last say 20 years she has watched friends getting into relationships, getting married, having kids and in some cases dealing with elderly or sick parents.
She said to me as time goes by it important to have friends. That sometimes you have to be willing to make a bit of effort or find the time to meet up with someone face to face. It not always easy to do this but long term relationships can end, kids grow up and life can throw a few bad patches at you.
She said I wish people would realise that you don't dump your friends on the way up and then expect them to be their for you on the way down because they won't.

She said I wish people would realise that you don't dump your friends on the way up and then expect them to be their for you on the way down because they won't.

I think its often more complicated than that though.

There are some people who are pretty cynical about this and will deliberately use people but most of the time its complicated: people may suddenly have more demands on their time or have issues with personal relationships or sick kids or whatever.

If people see everything in terms of being "dumped" they are setting everything up to be so needlessly hostile. It takes no account of the difficulties of life and makes everything so antagonistic.

I'll all for calling people out when they are being lazy or manipulative but most of the time its not about this. If you see everyone as being out to get you you are bound to experience everything much more negatively.

You're right op.

It seems like most people have a laissez faire, convenient (very) low priority attitude to friendship and are pretty uninfected.

If ypu don't have that attitude, it's confounding, disappointing and hurtful at times.

Unfortunately they don't really gaf so you shouldn't either.

Uninvested, not uninfected!

I agree with you on a lot of this, but there are also different levels of friendship.

I’ve found it much harder to keep in touch with people since having children. I do really try though.

@Tamworth123

You're right op.

It seems like most people have a laissez faire, convenient (very) low priority attitude to friendship and are pretty uninfected.

If ypu don't have that attitude, it's confounding, disappointing and hurtful at times.

Unfortunately they don't really gaf so you shouldn't either.

People who are like this I have stopped bothering with. If they don’t bother back, then that’s fine.

I completely disagree with you. I don't recognise what you describe. I prioritise friendships and always have. They are important to me. How old are you? Young? With kids. I'm older and my teens don't stop me or inhibit me, not that they ever did, from managing my friendships, spending as much time as I want on each one. I have very close friends, some less, some that are almost acquaintances. The level of friendship functions quite nicely at whatever level we want it to be.

@IcecreamOnTheDaily

I'm a person who has always valued really close friendships. Regardless of whether I've been single or not, my close friends are extremely important to me and I'm willing to put in the work to be consistent and reliable and there when they need me - if I'm particularly busy I'll still ensure to check in when I can and be there even if it's not super-convenient for me. Some of my friends I consider closer than my own family.

We often get told relationships take work and effort, but I'm finding increasingly that people don't apply this principle to friendships. It seems like a lot of people only want friendships on their own terms and purely at their own convenience - talk to me only when I feel like it, I'll reply only when I feel like it. It's socially acceptable to distance yourself from friends and fade them out of your life without any explanation, and if you feel upset at this, you're labelled 'clingy'. We're seemingly not allowed to have any expectations from friends, let alone articulate them. I find this especially strange given that many friendships last far longer than romantic relationships and our close friends may know us just as well, if not better, than our partners!

Of course, the same principle applies to friendships as romantic relationships, that no one should put up with toxic or abusive behaviour. I also get that people change and circumstances can impact our ability to be present as friends. But I do struggle with the idea that there is zero commitment in friendships and that people are happy to let them 'drift' or distance themselves without any explanation, even where people have been in each other's lives for decades. I have a best friend who is currently distancing herself from me without explanation and it is bloody hurtful, just as hurtful as previous break-ups even.

I could not agree more.

I think in real life, people actually value friendships a lot more than on Mumsnet. On here you immediately get accused of being needy and intense and hard work if you care a lot about your friends.