To think most people treat friends like they're disposable?

[IcecreamOnTheDaily]

I'm a person who has always valued really close friendships. Regardless of whether I've been single or not, my close friends are extremely important to me and I'm willing to put in the work to be consistent and reliable and there when they need me - if I'm particularly busy I'll still ensure to check in when I can and be there even if it's not super-convenient for me. Some of my friends I consider closer than my own family.

We often get told relationships take work and effort, but I'm finding increasingly that people don't apply this principle to friendships. It seems like a lot of people only want friendships on their own terms and purely at their own convenience - talk to me only when I feel like it, I'll reply only when I feel like it. It's socially acceptable to distance yourself from friends and fade them out of your life without any explanation, and if you feel upset at this, you're labelled 'clingy'. We're seemingly not allowed to have any expectations from friends, let alone articulate them. I find this especially strange given that many friendships last far longer than romantic relationships and our close friends may know us just as well, if not better, than our partners!

Of course, the same principle applies to friendships as romantic relationships, that no one should put up with toxic or abusive behaviour. I also get that people change and circumstances can impact our ability to be present as friends. But I do struggle with the idea that there is zero commitment in friendships and that people are happy to let them 'drift' or distance themselves without any explanation, even where people have been in each other's lives for decades. I have a best friend who is currently distancing herself from me without explanation and it is bloody hurtful, just as hurtful as previous break-ups even.

Yes - sometimes. Is my view. It does hurt when things are too one sided. I think part of it is that we have lots of friends, all at a different level of commitment and we don't have discussions around what that level of commitment is like we do in a romantic relationship. (And I don't think I'd want to). And if a romantic partner dumps you it is more acceptable to feel upset.

I am a terrible friend. We or atleast I do.live in such a fast paced,demanding throw a way society.I have trouble committing time to friendships. Most of my friends really are aquaintances if I think about it and I like it that way for the most part I am quite selfish in the fact that I cannot do with other peoples dramas and I would never expect anyone to deal with mine,not that I have many to be fair. I dont want to know about Brians erectile dysfunction or Mavis's mums holiday. I know that sounds mean but I woulld rather prefer to concentrate on my family. The time constraints that apply to a busy life meant I resented giving up my time to dedicate to others. I know I sound truly awful but I am not really. I rely on myself,I know if I need advice the people who have my best interests at heart are my family and its all I need. I am friendly and outgoing and I love life,I like the spontinaity of just seeing to us. I just simply dont have the capacity within me to maintain friendships on a deeper level,I dont want to,dont feel the need to. I just never feel like I need anyone elses approval or validation and some friendships seem to built on things like that.

@JanisMoplin Thanks for sharing the article, I'm going to have a read!

@TravellingFrom I agree that it's a reflection of a society where the 'I' is prized above all else. The problem is at a societal level because our jobs are increasingly demanding and by the time we clock off there is often not much left in the tank for anyone except our very immediate family. And we wonder why loneliness is so prevalent..

It is so hard OP. I totally understand where you are coming from. One of my closest friends of 25 years, made a unilateral decision to cut me off overnight - there wasn't even the slow fade. She sent me a message saying I had 'gone too far' after a night out with her and her husband and my DP. We racked our brains to try work out what I had said - we left on good terms and had a lot of fun, they were all drunk but I only had one drink as I had a big report to write on the Monday.
To this day I have no idea what I said, the only thing I can think of is that she didn't like my offer of proof reading a job application she was talking about. It is the lack of explanation that is the killer.

I think my friend would probably say I'm clingy or needy but she was happy to sustain that level of contact when it worked for her i.e. when she was single and feeling lonely as other friends paired off and had kids. I always made time for her when she needed me and it's incredibly hurtful that when I needed her, she's nowhere to be seen. Not that I'm in huge need, I do have a wonderful DH and family and am not going through a crisis or anything like that - I'm always careful with friends to show a lot of interest in their lives and not dump problems on them.

@StrawberrySquash I think this is part of the problem, the lack of clearly defined explanations, which makes it easy for the person pulling away to label the other person 'clingy'. With my friend, we had sustained daily contact for years, travelled together, seen each other through so many difficulties, so I suppose I took it for granted that we would always put in the time and effort to keep it up.

[quote thepeopleversuswork]@EmmaH2022

I am fine with not seeing my friends for months at a time. We are all busy and don’t live locally: why should that matter? If you are good enough friends it shouldn’t.[/quote]
Cool
I suppose my point of view is more - if you’re good friends, wouldn’t you at leat send a text saying “hi, how are you” every so often. This thread is helping me realise how I wound up so low on friends.

@IcecreamOnTheDaily

I think my friend would probably say I'm clingy or needy but she was happy to sustain that level of contact when it worked for her i.e. when she was single and feeling lonely as other friends paired off and had kids. I always made time for her when she needed me and it's incredibly hurtful that when I needed her, she's nowhere to be seen. Not that I'm in huge need, I do have a wonderful DH and family and am not going through a crisis or anything like that - I'm always careful with friends to show a lot of interest in their lives and not dump problems on them.

@StrawberrySquash I think this is part of the problem, the lack of clearly defined explanations, which makes it easy for the person pulling away to label the other person 'clingy'. With my friend, we had sustained daily contact for years, travelled together, seen each other through so many difficulties, so I suppose I took it for granted that we would always put in the time and effort to keep it up.

Exactly. People who are happy to take support then vanishing is very…actually I don’t know what the word is.

It seems like a lot of people only want friendships on their own terms and purely at their own convenience - talk to me only when I feel like it, I'll reply only when I feel like it.

But you can turn this the other way and say 'Some people want their friends at their beck and call all the time, and expect their friends to drop everything on command regardless of what's going on in their own lives'.

If you think your friends should talk to you even when they don't feel like it or it's not convenient for them, you're basically saying that your friends should revolve their lives around you and your needs, instead of their own and those of other people around them. Nobody should have to talk to anyone when they don't feel like it. Being drawn into replying to messages when you're doing other things or trying to chill out of just haven't got the energy is draining and depressing and does not make for a harmonious friendship.

I understand that it's hurtful to be ghosted without explanation, but I also think people who find themselves in that situation should probably just consider that maybe their idea of friendship is a lot more intense than the other person's, and that it's not a matter of who is right and who is wrong about friendship. It's just that you have different preferences.

For me, a friendship is meant to be enjoyable, not an obligation or a chore. I want my friends to talk to me because they like talking to me, not because they feel they have to talk to me to avoid offending me. I have friends who I see in person maybe once a year, but whenever I do see them it's fantastic, the conversation is non-stop and we end up with tears of laughter running down our faces. I love them to bits and we've definitely supported each other through some things, but we're not messaging constantly or living in each other's pockets.

So often on Mumsnet people post things about friends who have withdrawn from them and say things like 'we used to message every day and we did everything together' and I think 'Well, that's probably why the other friend is trying to withdraw, then, because it was way too much for her and she was finding it suffocating'.

If someone is dialling back a bit on the level of contact, take the hint and accept that not everyone's lives revolve around yours and that sometimes people just want a bit more time for themselves and others.

@incognitoforthisone I don't think friendships should be maintained purely out of duty, but we accept romantic relationships aren't always going to be fun or enjoyable and require work and effort - why do we not accept this for friendships? I don't always feel like talking to my friends, but if they need me I'll do my very best to be there and I'll also put in regular effort to check in. Do I always feel like hearing about their baby's colic or about their incompetent boss? No, but I accept that being a good friend involves listening and giving as well as taking.

And I don't expect people to drop everything for me and be available on my terms - the whole point of my post is that it needs to be mutual and reciprocal, not on one person's terms.

And if one person unilaterally pulls away when they were happy to sustain frequent contact when it suited them, it's pretty darn hurtful because it seems like you're just being used and discarded when it suits them. For example, my friend would always call me when she was driving to work - it wasn't always convenient for me to talk at that time but I tried to keep it up as much as I could because I knew she was lonely. But as soon as she got into a relationship (and her partner accompanied her on her commute), she stopped calling me and didn't answer when I called her at other times - it really made me feel like I was just filling her time when she was driving alone!

I'm a big fan of friendships need effort to maintain. Even those that can go months without seeing eachother, you need to put the effort in another way, be that messaging/phone calls or whatever.

The only time I've ever cut anyone out is when the friendship was draining me. Lockdown opened my eyes to a lot of friendships that were very one sided. I'd finish a conversation with them and feel horrible about myself. So I knew I needed to cut ties. Do I feel bad? Sometimes. But ultimately I'm much happier. I haven't stopped talking to anyone or blocked anyone, but I don't give people time and energy that they cannot be bothered to give back. Friendship is a two way street.

My closest friend had a breakdown last year and I was the person who she really relied upon. She is now a single parent to three teenagers and I’m child free, a few years younger than her and married. She remarked often that I was the only one that was there for her but other friends have young kids etc so were able to check in but perhaps not devote as much physical time as I did. Doesn’t mean they don’t care for her but they’re at a different stage than me.

I largely agree OP. I'm very lucky to have a (small) set of close friends now in adulthood as I didn't have a friendship group through school, I was a depressed 'weirdo' and found it really hard to fit in so I'm very appreciative and grateful of the friends I have now.

We have WhatsApp group chats that we chat in every day. Most of us are childfree but interestingly the one parent in our friendship group is one of the most dedicated to preserving and forming new friendships - she often says love comes in many forms and romantic love shouldn't be seen as the most important type, that it's important to nurture platonic love and the things you get from close friends that you don't get from partners.

I have known people who've drifted away/not put effort in/ditched friends when they got a partner, I think we've all experienced those types, but I let them drift - the people I have in my circle now all put in as much effort as I do. Some are in long-term relationships, others single, others newly dating, but we all see friends as something to be prioritised on an equal level to partners.

the whole point of my post is that it needs to be mutual and reciprocal, not on one person's terms.

Maybe it depends on what reciprocal means to both sides.

People have their own love language and that could easily go into pertaining into friendships. To some, mutual and reciprocal means the same as them while not considering that the other party may speak a different love language.

we all see friends as something to be prioritised on an equal level to partners
That's way too strong for most people surely! I would be really shocked if DH considered a friend's desire for company at an equivalent level to spending time with me and DS, and vice versa. I don't share a home with my friends, I don't share a child with my friends, I don't share the love for our wider families with my friends, I am not their emergency contact and nor are they mine, they won't inherit my estate nor I theirs... There is in no way an equivalence between a friend and the one person you select to be a life partner, who is my actual closest and dearest friend.

I think that if everyone is ‘letting you down’ and ‘not putting in the effort’, you might need to consider whether your own expectations are mismatched with your friendships. I mean, I think peoples’ ideas about friendships are hugely varied — I genuinely don’t recognise lots of the things people write about on here and clearly assume are normal, like describing people they clearly don’t like and who don’t treat them nicely as ‘friends’, or angsting about being ‘Wendied’ out of groups, or friends ‘ghosting’ them, or not ‘checking in’ enough, and the sheer politics of bridesmaiding and hens! I don’t recognise all that heavy weather and obligation, yet I have good, longterm friendships which have survived through lots of moves and life changes. I can’t help wondering if part of this is that it’s not a lot of work being my friend. If you need space, have it. I won’t huff about you not ‘checking in’. If you tell me something private, I won’t tell anyone.

we accept romantic relationships aren't always going to be fun or enjoyable and require work and effort - why do we not accept this for friendships?

I think you're comparing apples and oranges.

Romantic relationships aren't the same because there's often much more at risk if it goes wrong, and most adults live sign their partners so that will obviously take up more time and energy.

I mean, if I split with DH one of us has to move out, maybe change jobs - one of us will lose our pets too. There's none of that at risk if I lose a friendship.

To add - I don't even have children - for those that do, there's going to be even more at risk.

@fairylightsandwaxmelts

we accept romantic relationships aren't always going to be fun or enjoyable and require work and effort - why do we not accept this for friendships?

I think you're comparing apples and oranges.

Romantic relationships aren't the same because there's often much more at risk if it goes wrong, and most adults live sign their partners so that will obviously take up more time and energy.

I mean, if I split with DH one of us has to move out, maybe change jobs - one of us will lose our pets too. There's none of that at risk if I lose a friendship.

And for the vast majority of us who aren’t polyamorous, romantic relationships are one at a time — we don’t have to juggle multiples of different levels of closeness simultaneously.

I genuinely don’t recognise lots of the things people write about on here and clearly assume are normal, like describing people they clearly don’t like and who don’t treat them nicely as ‘friends’, or angsting about being ‘Wendied’ out of groups, or friends ‘ghosting’ them, or not ‘checking in’ enough, and the sheer politics of bridesmaiding and hens! I don’t recognise all that heavy weather and obligation, yet I have good, longterm friendships which have survived through lots of moves and life changes. I can’t help wondering if part of this is that it’s not a lot of work being my friend. If you need space, have it. I won’t huff about you not ‘checking in’. If you tell me something private, I won’t tell anyone.

Same here. I likely would let go of a friend if I found out something I told them in private, they told their spouse or someone else. I don’t even tell my own DH things that people tell me and definitely feel uncomfortable when he tells me things about other people that their spouses told him.

And for the vast majority of us who aren’t polyamorous, romantic relationships are one at a time — we don’t have to juggle multiples of different levels of closeness simultaneously.

Exactly.

I've had times in my life where I've been maintaining lots of friendships and it's been quite difficult to fit it all in on top of looking after myself, work, my relationship and my family.

I think some people place more importance in friendships than others.

For me it’s about what you assume about your friends.

If I have a friend who’s out of touch for a few weeks, do I assume that she is a bitch, she hates me, she’s a nasty person, she’s selfish, she’s two-faced, she’s talking behind my back, she’s turned on me or do I assume that she is having a bad week?

Lots of people on mumsnet have no friends because they assume the former. They take everything personally and assume the absolute worst of their so-called friends.

And the irony with the ghosting is that mumsnet encourages people to ghost i.e. go low or no contact with friends all the time! If there’s a misunderstanding, they insist that you should never clarify anything or ask for an explanation. You should just start distancing yourself from them! But those same people get so angry if they are ghosted. It’s nuts.

So often on Mumsnet people post things about friends who have withdrawn from them and say things like 'we used to message every day and we did everything together' and I think 'Well, that's probably why the other friend is trying to withdraw, then, because it was way too much for her and she was finding it suffocating'.

This. An awful lot of these situations are created when there's a dynamic where someone becomes over-reliant on a friend and it does start to turn into an obligation.

I've noticed a lot of these "dump her, she's not a friend" posts are triggered in a scenario where someone has split from a long-term relationship and then massively over-relies on a friend or friends essentially to step into the breach and prop them up while they recover. This can create an intensity which is really supportive and nice in the moment but then one of the friends expects this to be sustained indefinitely and the other starts to feel claustrophobic. Inevitably also people move on and meet other partners, so a dynamic created around both being single isn't going to feel the same under these circumstances.

For adults who (usually) have spouses, children and jobs or all three, there just isn't the space in their lives to devote this much time or attention to any one friend.

That doesn't mean its OK to drop someone like a hot brick because you've got a new partner, of course it doesn't. But by the same token you can't expect that level of intensity to be sustained indefinitely and you have to allow people to get on with their lives.

I think some people treat female friends as boyfriend surrogates and its quite unhealthy.

And to make it clear, because I don’t assume that someone hates me, I don’t ask them to defend themselves against that charge.

Some people think that if they accuse their friends politely, then no one should be offended but in reality if I take two weeks away from everyone and I come back to recriminations and accusations, I’m probably not going to want to be friends with that person for very long.

You really don’t come across as someone who would appear needy to a friend OP. I think the type of relationship that leads to someone dropping friends like hot potatoes is probably a bad one, but we know there are plenty of those about. It sounds like it’s definitely her and not you, but yes, it’s hurtful and unpleasant especially if you feel that she used you before she met this guy and is now making you out to be needy when it suits her.