The president of Ukraine

[Mynameisnew]

Used to be a stand up comic and actor, and was the voice of Paddington bear when Ukraine dubbed the film!

What good things have made your jaw drop recently?

'Zelensky actually didn't say NATO was responsible for every death from now on! His words verbatim:'

"All the people who die from this day forward will also die because of you, because of your weakness, because of your lack of unity."

'He said "ALSO" which means Zelensky blames Putin as a primary cause and NATO inaction as a secondary cause.'

Ah. 'Also'. Riiight.

Well if I was Zelenskyy I'd stop and think what implementing a no fly zone would mean going forward. Russian jets would be shot down therefore giving Putin the green light (as if he needs one but even he seems to think ww3 may be best avoided) for widespread escalation with even more horrific consequences.

Putin went into Crimea and no one did anything, he poisoned opposition leaders in the UK, he went into Syria, he watched the Uk and US botch the Afghani withdrawal, Germany has gone into a nice friendly agreement to get all their cheap gas from there - cheaper than the rest of Europe - no wonder he thinks he can do what he likes. That Easyjet flight flying over Belarus was brought to Minsk by ?Russian fighter jets, the poor guy they took is still in jail, hopefully still alive. And we did nothing.
Gordon Brown former PM says we need to do something to threaten Putin. Or he will just continue.

therefore giving Putin the green light (as if he needs one but even he seems to think ww3 may be best avoided) for widespread escalation with even more horrific consequences.

So as long as he has nuclear weapons he gets to do what he wants. That's the upshot of this.

@Polyanthus2

Putin went into Crimea and no one did anything, he poisoned opposition leaders in the UK, he went into Syria, he watched the Uk and US botch the Afghani withdrawal, Germany has gone into a nice friendly agreement to get all their cheap gas from there - cheaper than the rest of Europe - no wonder he thinks he can do what he likes. That Easyjet flight flying over Belarus was brought to Minsk by ?Russian fighter jets, the poor guy they took is still in jail, hopefully still alive. And we did nothing. Gordon Brown former PM says we need to do something to threaten Putin. Or he will just continue.

You know it! Wish people would wake up to the weakness of the West which Putin has been slowly testing for years.

This war may yet come to NATO whether they want it or not.

'Your attitude is basically, "I'm alright, Jack.....those Ukrainians will have to fend for themselves because I'm afraid of Putin!".

It isn't my attitude in the slightest. They are not fending for themselves they are getting NATO support with the provision of military equipment and humitarian support.

My 'attitude is basically' NATO cannot implement a no fly zone as the Russians will break it NATO will have to shoot them down and then Putin will consider nuclear weapons. Can you seriously not understand how escalating this further could lead to mass destruction?!

So now people think its ok to turn on Zelensky after all he and his people are going through. Can you imagine how they feel seeing their country destroyed and their people killed. Its Putin who is to blame for this atrocity and you cannot blame the Ukrainian people for feeling let down, dont let Putin win by turning people against each other.

'Its Putin who is to blame for this atrocity'

Exactly.

I'm sure Zelensky isn't whiter than white. Ukraine is incredibly corrupt, as mentioned, he has had some fingers in dodgy offshore activity and there's an unpleasantly authoritarian strain in elements of Ukrainian society and the military. (Although I doubt there are people in senior positions in Ukrainian politics who haven't done similar).

But it is relative. There's no way anyone can with a straight face draw an equivalence to Putin's Russia.

FWIW I don't doubt he's got a vain and narcissistic streak because most politicians do. But you have to give him credit for the way he's stepped up in this dire situation.

Shoot me but I also would if he weren't young enough for it to be embarrassing.

@BlanketsBanned you are completely right, this is EXACTLY what Putin wants. For Gods sake, let’s not give it to him.

@JaniieJones I am also right with you. Some people on here are being deliberately obtuse. We cannot implement a No Fly Zone. It will end in the worst way possible.

@JaniieJones

'Your attitude is basically, "I'm alright, Jack.....those Ukrainians will have to fend for themselves because I'm afraid of Putin!".

It isn't my attitude in the slightest. They are not fending for themselves they are getting NATO support with the provision of military equipment and humitarian support.

My 'attitude is basically' NATO cannot implement a no fly zone as the Russians will break it NATO will have to shoot them down and then Putin will consider nuclear weapons. Can you seriously not understand how escalating this further could lead to mass destruction?!

Once again, NATO is NOT involved in supplying anything to Ukraine militarily. Some NATO members are acting INDEPENDENTLY of NATO.

That's a big difference and it's obvious you fail to grasp nuances/distinctions. It's a crucial point to understand.

NATO more than has the capability to implement a no fly zone.

Putin is engaged in psychological warfare with the West, NATO and our civilians. His goal has been to stop us doing anything by making us believe he would use nuclear weapons.

He'd be assuring his own destruction if he did. All he needs is for NATO to believe he'd do it and he can do whatever he wants.

You blatantly ignore this aspect of the debate every time.

Military aid is the key thing that can change the situation and end this war. If Russia takes Ukraine, they may well want to impose themselves on another country.

After all, Putin has tested and seen the West is weak. On top of that, NATO knows its member states are below full strength in Military terms, so they are literally afraid of Russia's numbers rather than strength.

Germany, for example, has a decrepit military to the point they painted broomsticks black in 2018 to pretend they had machine guns on their tanks. All this is public information.

Once again, Putin looked West and all he saw was Western weakness at all levels.

Including, unbelievably, militarily.

Putin's Russia has clearly convinced you that they'd use nuclear weapons on us. In order for the West to fulfill its obligations under the Budapest Memorandum.....let them try it.

No way does Putin want Russia to be destroyed via Nuclear Mutual Assured Destruction.

War is psychological as much as physical. NATO needs to toughen up.

Putin wants Ukraine to turn on NATO but he knows full well they will not bomb the fucker because he is weak, a coward, he doesnt want his own people nuked while he hides away in his luxury home. .

This war need never have started if Donetsk and Luhansk had been allowed to become semi-autonomous regions, as was promised to them in negotiations between Ukraine and Russia, which Ukraine then backed out of.

Leatmarmite, the egotiations between Ukraine and Russia you refer to above are known as the Minsk agreements. They have not been implemented because neither side can agree on the terms set out. A major blockage has been Russia's insistence that it is not a party to the conflict and therefore is not bound by its terms.The situation is not as straightforward as you imply and you present a very one sided view.

Likewise the far right exist sadly as a movement in Ukraine and as you say the Asov battalion began as a far right volunteer regiment fighting pro separatists in 2014 which the then-President Petro Poroshenko officially integrated into Ukraine’s National Guard, however the movement electorally is marginal. When its political wing joined forces with several other far-right parties to participate in Ukraine’s most recent parliamentary elections in 2019, the bloc drew barely more than 2% of the vote.

The far right movement is grim and when Ukraine is desperate for all to resist the invasion the movement worryingly will probably use the current crisis as an opportunity to try and gain support, but Zelensky is not a supporter of it and as said electorally it has v little support.

• typo in first sentence in my comment above, negotiations not egotiations!

@Ieatmarmite

"And also undermines Russian claims of Ukrainians being nazis and carrying out genocide against ethnic Russians.."

First off, before I'm attacked as a Putin lover, I think he's a vile man and a war criminal. I do
suggest though that you do a bit more research before making declarations about Zelensky. The "special forces" in Ukrainian army, the Azov Brigade are ultra nationalist neo Nazis who wear swastikas and have proclaimed their aim is to cleanse Ukraine of ethnic Russians and other groups they see as undesirable - Roma, LGBGT community, Muslims (The Azov Brigade have videos showing them coating bullets in pig fat to shoot muslims), migrants. The leaders of opposition parties in Ukraine have been jailed under Zelensky. Under his Presidency journalists who are critical of his Government are sacked from their posts and censored. Nazis aren't just defined as people who hate Jews. Nazis are ultra nationalist, white supremacists and Ukraine is one of the centres of neo Nazism in Europe.

The ethnic Russians, who are in the majority in Crimea felt so threatened by the right wing ultra nationalists in Ukraine who were killing ethnic Russians in other parts of the country including setting fire to a town hall & burning people to death, that over 80% of them voted to become part of Russia where they thought they would be protected. The majority ethnic Russian population in Donetsk and Luhansk also feel the same threat. The Azov Brigade have been particularly active in Donetsk. Ukraine is the only country with a neo-Nazi battalion in its army. It has been condemned by the UN Commissioner for Human Rights. If Zelensky isn't a Nazi himself then he certainly hasn't done anything to condemn those that are and is happy to let them serve in his army.

Zelensky doesn't seem to be that bright. He's been played as a fool by the US, who are the main drivers of NATO. Now he pleads for a no fly zone which NATO aren't going to give because they know how this could lead to nuclear war. The US is prepared to sacrifice Ukraine to increase their geopolitical power - they now have international consent for crippling economic warfare on Russia and have increased support for NATO. Russia may get Kyiv but it will bog them down for years. In the meantime the US increases its hegemony. This war need never have started if Donetsk and Luhansk had been allowed to become semi-autonomous regions, as was promised to them in negotiations between Ukraine and Russia, which Ukraine then backed out of. It need never have started if Zelensky had been more circumspect and forward thinking when the possibility of joining NATO was being whispered in his ear by the US, who have now pulled back leaving the citizens of Ukraine to suffer. It might never have started if the US hadn't rejected the putative deal agreed by Macron and Putin last month. This war is all to the advantage of the US and to the detriment of the people of Ukraine and, ultimately the people of Russia. That good looking, charming man, who can't possibly hold right-wing fascist views, wants photos of children on desks (does that include Muslim children, migrants' children, ethnic Russian children?), and has a beautiful and intelligent wife holds a lot of the blame along with Putin and Biden.

Nazism has existed in Ukraine LONG before Zelensky ever took power. I mean, it could well have been Ukrainian Nazis who murdered his family since many fought for them.

But if you think that Putin invaded Ukraine because he cares about LGBT rights, Muslim rights or any kind of civil rights then you must be living on another planet. The nazis putin is referring to are from the great patriotic war. They call it the Bandera regime ffs. This is grievances from 80 years ago. So yes, having a Jewish man lead the country shines a light on this ridiculous lie.
Plus Zelensky is a native Russian speaker himself. That's his first language. So, effectively, hes meant to be committing genocide against his own people, the Russian speakers??

Well said FarangGirl.

I've just been going through the instagram feeds of both him and his wife and putting some of the captions through Google translate. There's some really beautiful words to each other.

(Just to bring the thread back to more of the shamelessly self-indulgent admiration it started at that I'm totally on board with)

He is rather dishy. I wouldn't mind another lockdown with him!

He is a very brave leader - and I pray he stays alive and well.

Today Putin was shown discussing goodness knows what with a load of Aeroflot air stewards - all female. What the hell. He's nuts.

Someone said that he has possibly been taking steroids and it has affected his brain - I know you aren't supposed to take them long term and he has a puffy look to his face.

But I wonder if those at the top in Russia (who must have a good idea what is going on and not be blinded by Putin's lies) are going to sit by whilst Putin pushes the nuclear button - because you can be pretty sure that the US will have more of them and better aimed ones. I think the US has some sort of shield. And with much of the western world against this war it won't just be the US who strikes Russia.

Are his side kicks really just going to stand by and wait for the blinding flash to annihialate them

I wonder if the mothers of 18 year old boys who have been not allowed to leave think he is hot.

@BookkeeperBobby

[\shrug]

You wanted reputable sources.

Admittedly mine aren't in the same league as posters on Mumsnet chatting about Paddington but there they are nevertheless if you wish to read them.

Oi I take that as an insult. The point of my thread was my surprise at the president of a country having voiced Paddington bear. I invited people to share other items of happy surprise. Since this is MUMsnet, you'll find a lot of women here who are more than happy to talk about children's films.

There are neo Nazis in Russia as well and there are reports about their worrying increase in numbers.
Neo Nazis are on the increase in many countries.
It is totally irrelevant to this discussion though and is an attempt at deflection.
Right now the Russian army is bombing civilians in a democratic country. Children and adults are being killed by soldiers directed by Putin who is a dictator.
This invasion, unlike most wars, is pretty straightforward in terms of who we should support. So do you support:

1. A dictator who is invading a democratic country?

or

1. A democratic country that is being invaded by a Dictator?

Is Ukraine perfect? No, it is not, but it is democratic and we can see the Ukrainians are fighting with their lives to retain that democracy.
The UK is far from perfect either. Think of all the scandals around PPE and party gate. But if we were being invaded by a dictator I would hope that those abroad would clearly condemn this even though we have had scandals.

alltheapples well said