Exceptions for Ukraine refugees

[myear]

I would genuinely be happy if someone can explain to me how IABU so I can feel less upset!

I am pleased for the Ukrainians that the EU is making exceptions for them so that anyone can come in, can get jobs straight away, no need for a visa for 3 years etc, but AIBU to feel bitter about my own treatment as an asylum seeker many many years ago? I can’t help but wonder why these exceptions are made for people fleeing the Ukraine, but not for people who fled my country to survive ethnic cleansing and what the UN found was war crimes against my people.

We had to lie to get a visa to Europe, lie to then get into the country when we were taken away for questioning at the border, apply for asylum 6 times as it kept being rejected, and only got approved on the basis that we had stayed too long to be kicked out, couldn’t work for a long time, and no exceptions were made to reduce bureaucratic hurdles. To be blunt, I question whether exceptions are being made for the Ukrainian refugees because they are white and people from my country are black.

My white DH, who is from the European country that took me in, is upset that the UK is not waiving visa requirements for Ukrainians and only allowing those with family in, rather than anyone seeking refuge. But, he doesn’t really see a problem with how I was treated by his country either, for reasons such as:

1. We fled a civil war whereas Ukraine is being attacked by another country. Countries need to deal with their own problems (but incidentally thinks it was right to intervene in NI / ROI - again white).

1. It’s not his country’s duty to help my country as they didn’t cause the war (but neither did his country cause the Ukraine war yet they are making exceptions for them).

1. Ukraine is geographically closer, although not a direct neighbour (so?)

1. Why am I not upset at the people who caused war in my country (but how is that relevant to the differing treatment I’m now seeing?)

1. Why am I not upset at neighbouring countries, they didn’t help either (again, how is that relevant?)

1. No exceptions were made for Kosovo, Bosnia etc so the Ukraine exceptions are not based on race (can't argue against that!)

I am very grateful that we were able to find safety in Europe and have a great life, but this seems to be upsetting me more than I can rationally explain.

Don't worry op arguing is meat and drink to some.
I'm so sorry for all your experiences and the way the current news is affecting you. My firm advice is to get off the rollercoaster by stopping all news consumption.
I'm in a bad place for other reasons and all I can say is distract, keep physically active and stick to family supporting each other.

@Selma22, what are these similar traditions you are referring to?

Christian values? What are they that are so evident in Ukrainian and British culture that isn’t evident in others?

What are you really getting at?

💐please put your own wellbeing first.

the culture and heritage of Ukraine is as different to ours as ours is to Libya. The only thing we have truly in common is our skin colour, which appears to be the defining factor.

I don't agree with this at all. My family are part German/Polish and the culture of Ukraine doesnt seem that different to me, neither does the culture bw Germany and the UK.

@Porcupineintherough, what is that culture that you speak of? Does that include British people from ethnic minority backgrounds? Do you consider them to have a similar culture to you?

What is that culture you speak of and what do the people who belong to that culture look like?

Do you have more in common culturally with a Ukrainian than say a black British or a black personality from a former British colony or even a current British colony?

[quote Why2why]@Selma22, what are these similar traditions you are referring to?

Christian values? What are they that are so evident in Ukrainian and British culture that isn’t evident in others?

What are you really getting at?[/quote]
Cultural similarities we all notice.For example when travelling to Qatar as unmarried couple would notice,or wishing to have a drink,eat pork,celebrate Christian holidays in some countries.Views on gender (men and women working together,shaking hands,physical contact ,family values etc).
This obviously shouldn't make the difference but yes people do identify closer to people similar to them and do believe someone of similar views might fit in easier for the duration they are here.

I think it's got a lot to do with being on the same continent - this is the first war in Europe for decades, and Ukraine is a potential member of the EU/NATO. It already might have been but for the existing conflict with Russia in the Crimea.

Plus it's very obviously and publicly a baseless attack on a peaceful country, and those evacuating are only women and children. That means it asks a very clear question of the government: who are we if we won't take these clearly and demonstrably innocent refugees? (and to be clear, I would take a lot more refugees from around the world if it was down to me).

But I also see geopolitical reasons - the West vs Russia narrative/defending the right to be a European country. This attack has clarified a lot of things about Putin's intentions that were previously quite shadowy/unknown. He's been connected to other wars in recent years that have caused people to leave their countries as refugees, but this one is just blatant and leaves zero room for doubt.

I can't believe the amount of racism that's been allowed to stand here on this thread.

It can't really be that surprising that people here are worried and alarmed at a European country being invaded? We spend years being taught about the history of the world wars, we study war poems in English to really bring the horror home. we remember the fallen every year. War in Europe is really shocking to us.

We have an affinity with other European countries, particularly with the Eastern European countries I think because so many Eastern European people have came and settled here and made their homes here in recent times. There is an expectation when a country is in difficulty that their friends and neighbours will be there to help. Ukraine - being European - are our friends and neighbours, and we can all see that we aren't doing enough to help.

I can't believe the amount of racism that's been allowed to stand here on this thread

Are you new here?

MN loves a bit of race baiting

We have an affinity with East European countries?!

I'm so so confused about Brexit now.

'I don't know, can't you imagine how jarring it is to see the world value the lives of others much more highly than those of your country?'

I don't know if the world does. I doubt people outside the West really care very much about what's happening in Ukraine at all.

@lemongreentea

We have an affinity with East European countries?!

I'm so so confused about Brexit now.

Most people didn't vote for Brexit.

@SmellyOldOwls

'I don't know, can't you imagine how jarring it is to see the world value the lives of others much more highly than those of your country?'

I don't know if the world does. I doubt people outside the West really care very much about what's happening in Ukraine at all.

See this is it. What aid are other countries giving? Are they being given asylum in African countries, middle Eastern, Asian? If you think 'the world' is the West then you aren't as enlightened as you think you are.

@SmellyOldOwls

It can't really be that surprising that people here are worried and alarmed at a European country being invaded? We spend years being taught about the history of the world wars, we study war poems in English to really bring the horror home. we remember the fallen every year. War in Europe is really shocking to us.

We have an affinity with other European countries, particularly with the Eastern European countries I think because so many Eastern European people have came and settled here and made their homes here in recent times. There is an expectation when a country is in difficulty that their friends and neighbours will be there to help. Ukraine - being European - are our friends and neighbours, and we can all see that we aren't doing enough to help.

So what about other people who have been settling here too and making it their home? Do we have an affinity with them too?

not if they are:

men who are not white.

women who dont have the same culture as us.

'So what about other people who have been settling here too and making it their home? Do we have an affinity with them too?'

Yes, I should like to think so. But I think it's probably the case more so with Eastern European's because pretty large numbers have settled in rural towns and formed communities there, opened shops and cafes and so on. I know in larger cities there will be large swathes of people from all across the world and you might have friends from any country but in small towns not so much.

Do you have more in common culturally with a Ukrainian than say a black British or a black personality from a former British colony or even a current British colony?

Interesting question. Sometimes no, sometimes yes. I lived for some years in a tiny rural village in Nigeria (former colony); culturally I had very little in common with my neighbours but when I mixed with English speak educated Nigerians (the school system was still very anglocentric) we had more common cultural ground. Now back in the UK I have quite a few Nigerian British / British Nigerian friends and again the common ground is greater but in part because I have a greater understanding of their cultures and world view.

When I meet black people with a West Indian/ Caribbean heritage it seems to me that the cultural similarities between us are far greater and similar to that I feel with white Europeans. But if I wasn't the child of immigrants from Europe myself maybe that would be different. I don't feel hugely British for a start, I'm just more British than I am anything else.

In 1994 with the Budapest memorandum the Ukraine agreed to destroy the world’s largest cachet of atomic weapons in exchange for protection from Britain the United States and Russia

Are UK and the US have obligations to protect the Ukraine should it be invaded. Furthermore the United Kingdom cannot be responsible for policing the whole planet regional conflicts need to be resolved in the region and by the neighbours you cannot expect the same response to European crisis as one much further away geographically

@myear
Firstly, yabu regarding your application process. Due process was followed. No country should be obligated to take you in because your country has an issue. This shouldn't be the expectations imo. If countries choose to, then yes they get to cherry pick whom!

As for the points you raise:

1. We fled a civil war whereas Ukraine is being attacked by another country. Countries need to deal with their own problems (but incidentally thinks it was right to intervene in NI / ROI - again white). UK was embroiled in this because NI is a part of the UK.

1. It’s not his country’s duty to help my country as they didn’t cause the war (but neither did his country cause the Ukraine war yet they are making exceptions for them). Absolutely. But this invasion has potential implications for many others. Your country's issues obviously had no such potential.

1. Ukraine is geographically closer, although not a direct neighbour (so?) It's within Europe, yes, and physically closer to most western European countries and again, there are different implications for Ukraine. Plus, dare I say, not an ethnic cleansing of Muslims issue!

1. Why am I not upset at the people who caused war in my country (but how is that relevant to the differing treatment I’m now seeing?) indeed that's who caused your misfortune, yet you're instead focusing on your saviours!

1. Why am I not upset at neighbouring countries, they didn’t help either (again, how is that relevant?) Absolutely

1. No exceptions were made for Kosovo, Bosnia etc so the Ukraine exceptions are not based on race (can't argue against that!) Indeed not race, though religion maybe the factor!

@Porcupineintherough

Do you have more in common culturally with a Ukrainian than say a black British or a black personality from a former British colony or even a current British colony?

Interesting question. Sometimes no, sometimes yes. I lived for some years in a tiny rural village in Nigeria (former colony); culturally I had very little in common with my neighbours but when I mixed with English speak educated Nigerians (the school system was still very anglocentric) we had more common cultural ground. Now back in the UK I have quite a few Nigerian British / British Nigerian friends and again the common ground is greater but in part because I have a greater understanding of their cultures and world view.

When I meet black people with a West Indian/ Caribbean heritage it seems to me that the cultural similarities between us are far greater and similar to that I feel with white Europeans. But if I wasn't the child of immigrants from Europe myself maybe that would be different. I don't feel hugely British for a start, I'm just more British than I am anything else.

If this post didn't mention your background but let's say I (as a white European ) wrote that someone might be feeling this way I would be called racist .Apparently acknowledging that people feel closer to those similar (cultural similarities) to themselves cannot be right. Intricasies of cultural identity should be discussed with more open mind.

@lemongreentea

If you have blond hair and blue eyes you'll probably be fine tbh.

It takes a certain kind of blinkered politicking bigot to make deprecating comments about the eye and hair colour of women and children fleeing for their lives.

Do people like this look at news items depicting children with war injuries or who are displaced and separated from loved ones, and think "yep, they have blue eyes, they'll be fine".

It is ironic as the Brexit referendum propaganda focused heavily on Eastern Europeans coming here to "steal our jobs and speaking forrin" as well as people fleeing from Syria. There was overt, ugly xenophobia against Eastern Europeans in the Uk and there still is, although many have now left the UK as a result of Brexit. The average jo outside of big cities doesn't even try to hide their hatred of immigrants from Eastern Europe. But now we all love Eastern Europeans because they have blue eyes and blonde hair? Okay.

Apparently acknowledging that people feel closer to those similar (cultural similarities) to themselves cannot be right.

I think the difficulties come when "feeling closer to" becomes conflated with human worth. I might feel culturally closer to the Ukrainians fleeing the Russian advance than I do to some of the African students fleeing the same, but that doesn't for one second mean that I think that their plight is any less worthy of help - and Ive been nothing but horrified by the differences in their treatment.

I guess the difficulties come in engendering that spark of common humanity when the people in question are culturally and geographically different and we are (relatively) unaffected by their plight. Seeing helps, but one of the reasons the news is so focused on Ukraine is because we are worried that the war there may spread and lead to ww3 - the war in the Yemen doesnt cause quite the same impact in Europe.

And yet another factor is compassion fatigue. We are quite good at caring about people shown on our screens - for a bit. Then we move on and need/want to think about something else for a while. I don't think the average human can cope with active and conscious concern over multiple human crises over extended periods, let alone acting consistently to help out.

Why are you minimising this awfulness

@Bonheurdupasse I'm not. there were 60 reports that of theft, assault and sexual assault (including rape) were reported to the police in Cologne on NYE 2015. At the time a lot of the rightwing press (yes, Bild, I'm looking at you) focussed on the statements that said "it looked as though a lot of them were from North Africa/Egypt". I didn't minimise anything, it was shocking and it still would be.

HOWEVER. Like OP i am comparing that thing to something else: and that is i live near Cologne and i have been robbed and groped there more than once (it is sometimes a fact of life at Karneval), I, like my friends who report similar, have been nearly 100% groped/attacked by white Germans, or white people. We have been talking about rapes at the (overwhelmingly white) Oktoberfest for years, and the same men who want to string up men who look as though they come from North Africa / Egypt for attacking women on NYE have steadfastly ignored it for years and years, they simply don't care

So if you're going to bring up a couple of incidents that have possibly been inflamed for nefarious purposes, I'm going to rebut it with some facts. Violence against women is fine as long as it is "us" against "our" women. As soon as those pesky "darkies" turn up it's outrageous. So you'll have to forgive me for not paying as much attention to it as you would like.

I am glad OP and her mum made it to safety, i really am, and i think the rest of the world could really take a long hard look at itself regarding refugees.

But we also cannot deny the fact that this isn't a civil war. This is an act of aggression by one sovereign power on another (smaller) one. A power, the Ukraine, that gave up some pretty useful strategic weapons in return for promises to defend them, should push come to shove. That shove is here. And one of the things we can and should be doing is taking in refugees.