Exceptions for Ukraine refugees

[myear]

I would genuinely be happy if someone can explain to me how IABU so I can feel less upset!

I am pleased for the Ukrainians that the EU is making exceptions for them so that anyone can come in, can get jobs straight away, no need for a visa for 3 years etc, but AIBU to feel bitter about my own treatment as an asylum seeker many many years ago? I can’t help but wonder why these exceptions are made for people fleeing the Ukraine, but not for people who fled my country to survive ethnic cleansing and what the UN found was war crimes against my people.

We had to lie to get a visa to Europe, lie to then get into the country when we were taken away for questioning at the border, apply for asylum 6 times as it kept being rejected, and only got approved on the basis that we had stayed too long to be kicked out, couldn’t work for a long time, and no exceptions were made to reduce bureaucratic hurdles. To be blunt, I question whether exceptions are being made for the Ukrainian refugees because they are white and people from my country are black.

My white DH, who is from the European country that took me in, is upset that the UK is not waiving visa requirements for Ukrainians and only allowing those with family in, rather than anyone seeking refuge. But, he doesn’t really see a problem with how I was treated by his country either, for reasons such as:

1. We fled a civil war whereas Ukraine is being attacked by another country. Countries need to deal with their own problems (but incidentally thinks it was right to intervene in NI / ROI - again white).

1. It’s not his country’s duty to help my country as they didn’t cause the war (but neither did his country cause the Ukraine war yet they are making exceptions for them).

1. Ukraine is geographically closer, although not a direct neighbour (so?)

1. Why am I not upset at the people who caused war in my country (but how is that relevant to the differing treatment I’m now seeing?)

1. Why am I not upset at neighbouring countries, they didn’t help either (again, how is that relevant?)

1. No exceptions were made for Kosovo, Bosnia etc so the Ukraine exceptions are not based on race (can't argue against that!)

I am very grateful that we were able to find safety in Europe and have a great life, but this seems to be upsetting me more than I can rationally explain.

I'd like to think this is a new way of dealing with refugees but we'll see what happens next time they're majority black or brown that are fleeing a war.

yes will be interesting to see if we feel the same level of compassion.

Saying "so" to geographical proximity is unreasonable imo. I also see the point about it being an invasion by a superpower versus a civil war like former Yugoslavia. EU and UK was backing Ukraine in it's moving away from Russian influence towards EU / NATO. They bear some responsibility.

All these rational issues aside it's got to feel raw to you. I think it's one of those things were feelings are too strong to have a factual discussion and your DH needs to use discretion. Equally you would be wise not to push him to "debate" this give his reasons.

and yet the EU is giving unlimited access to anyone in the Ukraine who wants to come, so I question why they are treated so differently.

I think you are confused tbh. They aren't being granted permanent asylum. That isn't what is happening. They are being given 1-3 year visas depending on how long the conflict lasts. It isn't permanent access like you were given, it is seen short term help. I think it is clear from the fact that your mother appealed six times that she didn't want to go back to her home country after 1-3 years or she wouldn't have appealed so many times. Do you think that the new norm should be short term visas for refugees then they should be sent home again? Would that have been helpful in your situation? I don't feel like you are comparing like with like tbh.

Scrap " give his reasons" at the end.

@myear the laws governing who qualifies for asylum are really quite narrow. Living in a country with unrest/warfare isnt enough, you have to be an individual or part of a group that is being specifically targeted. That's why your family had to lie. The asylum system wasnt and isnt designed to prevent civilian deaths from warfare because there's far to much of it in the world.
What's happening in the EU is not the international asylum system working, it's adjacent countries coping with the mass exodus of people from a war zone. It's the sort of movement that ends up with refugee camps being set up, similar to what happened in the countries surrounding Syria (1 in 4 people in Lebanon was Syrian at one point).

[quote Bonheurdupasse]@Hshuznw
I am comparing them because my point is that people will be more open to women and children fleeing than to mostly young men as the latter more like to cause something like that Cologne mass attack that they did.[/quote]
You keep referring to the “Cologne mass attack”. You’re still not using your words to tell me who is responsible for this alleged mass attack.

And why a few bad apples are representative of the entire group?

And why anyone else from that same background is not welcome but women and children from Ukraine are.

Use your words.

I repeat, use your words.

Use your words.

Which region and men are you talking about?

@RoastedFerret

and yet the EU is giving unlimited access to anyone in the Ukraine who wants to come, so I question why they are treated so differently.

I think you are confused tbh. They aren't being granted permanent asylum. That isn't what is happening. They are being given 1-3 year visas depending on how long the conflict lasts. It isn't permanent access like you were given, it is seen short term help. I think it is clear from the fact that your mother appealed six times that she didn't want to go back to her home country after 1-3 years or she wouldn't have appealed so many times. Do you think that the new norm should be short term visas for refugees then they should be sent home again? Would that have been helpful in your situation? I don't feel like you are comparing like with like tbh.

This! As harsh as it sounds with all.the horrible things going on in the world there is simply not enough space or the infrastructure to accommodate everyone for as long as they wish.Couple of years for a nearby neighbour who is facing our common foe is different

@Why2why

You do realise that refugees from non-European countries are not only made of men. There are women too. Do they not matter because they are not white women and children? Do you feel the same sympathy for these women and children who are not white? Who face unimaginable hardship and dangers to make their way to safety? Who face untold discrimination and racism as they journey through to safety?

I understand that, but there seems to be an unlikely high proportion of young men coming from other conflicts being referenced. (Again see other poster mentioning the young men from Calais, the skew of the people arriving in Cologne that then resulted in the Cologne mass attack etc). While in the Ukrainian case it’s pretty straightforward the other way around - women and children.

Which is what I argue is part of the reason.

People are ignoring as its a can of worms and nobody wants to have a back and forth debate but simply express their opinions and thats it

*I understand that, but there seems to be an unlikely high proportion of young men coming from other conflicts being referenced

Erm yes as there's no safe passage and the journey itself is highly risky. If there weren't such barriers I'm sure we would see a lot more women and children from these areas.

@Selma22

I'd say its a combinations of reasons.Ukraines geographical proximity is one.Surely Chinese would welcome their neighbour Asians over let's say Lithuanians? The fact that its women and children not young men.People have a hard time being sympathetic to those they believe should have stayed behind to fight for their country. Also a while ago there were plenty of issues (for example sex assaults on Europe by migrants ) caused by difference in culture etc.It is easier to accept people we believe to be similar to us.Surely it would make sense to go to country with similar culture and religion. Not even talking that there are many who are caught lying (age etc ) and therefore there is lack of trust for the reason they seek to stay (economic? ) and their validity (do they fit all the criteria ).

But economic migrants made of mainly men are very different to women and children fleeing war from other countries. It’s comparing oranges and apples.

The fact is women and children fleeing war and death in other countries are repeatedly denied asylum. Those from Ukraine are being welcomed. That’s OP’s point.

@Hshuznw
Consider:
A. Situation A set of refugees from other regions, mostly composed of young men as can be seen from various news sources.
(Causing effects like Cologne mass attack)

C. Situation C women and children from Ukraine.

Add hypothetically
B. Situation B mostly young men from Ukraine, similar skew as seen in A.

My point is that people will be more open to B than A due to familiarity (lots of Ukrainian men working in Poland), neighbourhood country etc and indeed racism.

But also that people will be more open to C than B as -> women and children seen as more innocent and less dangerous than young men.

Given how things did go with situation A (e.g. Cologne attack), my point is that the difference in people’s openness between situation A and C is due to the (B vs C) difference that is women and children vs mostly young men.

Apologies.
To my last sentence- is mostly due.

While you are saying that it’s mostly due to A vs B

@Cablefable

*I understand that, but there seems to be an unlikely high proportion of young men coming from other conflicts being referenced

Erm yes as there's no safe passage and the journey itself is highly risky. If there weren't such barriers I'm sure we would see a lot more women and children from these areas.

I come from a country with previous conflict.Our men didn't leave elderly and women behind if they were unable to travel. My great grandfather died as a war prisoner but didn't leave his family and country behind because as a man it was easier for him to get out

And specifically the racism in A vs B rather than familiarity etc

What the fuck do you mean about causing a cologne incident?

OK since the Cologne mass attack keeps getting mentioned. It was alleged that there were mass rapes on New Years Eve in Cologne because of so many drunk alluring women being too attractive to many of the asylum seekers/refugees that we took in in Germany. (I'll check in a bit what happened about that). And it was all - especially here in the region, i live near Cologne - "oh no those nasty brown men who don't have respect for our lovely white women." and so on.

Completely ignoring the fact that many of their "lovely white women" have been complaining about being harrassed/sexually assaulted/raped by white men at NYE, Karneval, and particularly the Oktoberfest (which is worse in a way as Bavaria on the whole isn't as diverse and liberal as towns like Cologne)

The inference from these posters being: nasty brown men just want to come here to cause trouble. Which is bollocks insofar as maybe some of them do when they get here. The numbers are far outweighed by the locals who do it too. Racist dog whistling.

The other points stand.Besides welcomed for couple of years not indefinitely

@Brefugee

Why are you minimising this awfulness

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015%E2%80%9316_New_Year's_Eve_sexual_assaults_in_Germany

Women and children fleeing Ukraine are much less likely to cause a Cologne mass incident than the mostly young men from other regions that did cause it.

Women and children fleeing any conflict are much less likely to cause a "Cologne mass incident" as you call it. Considering the statistics show that over 75% of Ukrainian women have experienced physical or sexual violence from their partner in the last 12 months and the UN has previously warned against the unacceptable levels of violence towards women (as well as expressing concerns for the rise in racism and antisemitism) in Ukraine, I wouldn't bet on the men behaving any better once they get here (and they will come if their families are here).

But do people in Asia not see their neighbouring countries as 'one of us', people in Africa not see their neighbouring countries as 'one of us' etc? Why should we(europeans) feel guilty for seeing our neighbours as 'one of us' just because they happen to be white?

Ukraine is not in any way a neighbour of the British Isles. Kyiv is around 1325 miles from London, while Donetsk is around 1695. For comparison Tripoli is 1450 miles away, Istanbul 1550, Tunis 1290 and Marrakech 1430. Yet no one would consider those to be out neighbours. Similarly, the culture and heritage of Ukraine is as different to ours as ours is to Libya. The only thing we have truly in common is our skin colour, which appears to be the defining factor.

@Thebestwaytoscareatory

Women and children fleeing Ukraine are much less likely to cause a Cologne mass incident than the mostly young men from other regions that did cause it.

Women and children fleeing any conflict are much less likely to cause a "Cologne mass incident" as you call it. Considering the statistics show that over 75% of Ukrainian women have experienced physical or sexual violence from their partner in the last 12 months and the UN has previously warned against the unacceptable levels of violence towards women (as well as expressing concerns for the rise in racism and antisemitism) in Ukraine, I wouldn't bet on the men behaving any better once they get here (and they will come if their families are here).

But do people in Asia not see their neighbouring countries as 'one of us', people in Africa not see their neighbouring countries as 'one of us' etc? Why should we(europeans) feel guilty for seeing our neighbours as 'one of us' just because they happen to be white?

Ukraine is not in any way a neighbour of the British Isles. Kyiv is around 1325 miles from London, while Donetsk is around 1695. For comparison Tripoli is 1450 miles away, Istanbul 1550, Tunis 1290 and Marrakech 1430. Yet no one would consider those to be out neighbours. Similarly, the culture and heritage of Ukraine is as different to ours as ours is to Libya. The only thing we have truly in common is our skin colour, which appears to be the defining factor.

Skin colour? I'd say similar traditions and views many of which are Christianity based.It is simply easier to relate for most.

I'm sorry I didn't mean to start an argument here

The fact is women and children fleeing war and death in other countries are repeatedly denied asylum. Those from Ukraine are being welcomed. That’s OP’s point.

This is exactly what I mean! Thank you to the poster who summarised it so well.

Someone else said we don't grant asylum to people living in war, you have to be part of a targeted group. Well, we were part of a targeted group, targeted by our race / language.

I also understand it's a max 3 year stay in the EU and not unlimited. By unlimited, I meant access to work and public funds as if you are a citizen of that country. We didn't have that.

My mum did not give up appealing to stay because she didn't want to go back to her country to die. And I'm eternally grateful that she persevered, because 3 years later a bomb landed directly on our house as the government was targeting civilian areas (one of the war crimes)

I'm glad I started this thread as I can now see some good reasons unrelated to skin why we would make these exceptions now - for example, to send a message to Russia. On an emotional level, I can't help that it stings.

My own experiences have brought alot of things back in my mind and my anxiety about the people of Ukraine is through the roof. I have barely slept and am looking at the news every 10 mins hoping it's over. I don't want anyone to go through what we went through. At the same time, I feel really mean and selfish to be feeling sorry for myself. I feel like I'm on a rollercoaster of complex emotions and it's exhausting.

I see your point.i keep checking the news all the time too.Cannot wait for this to be over as anxiety is through the roof (I'm from an ex Soviet country.My mother and family still share border with Russia).All we can do is pray for those poor people and hope this is over soon