Exceptions for Ukraine refugees

[myear]

I would genuinely be happy if someone can explain to me how IABU so I can feel less upset!

I am pleased for the Ukrainians that the EU is making exceptions for them so that anyone can come in, can get jobs straight away, no need for a visa for 3 years etc, but AIBU to feel bitter about my own treatment as an asylum seeker many many years ago? I can’t help but wonder why these exceptions are made for people fleeing the Ukraine, but not for people who fled my country to survive ethnic cleansing and what the UN found was war crimes against my people.

We had to lie to get a visa to Europe, lie to then get into the country when we were taken away for questioning at the border, apply for asylum 6 times as it kept being rejected, and only got approved on the basis that we had stayed too long to be kicked out, couldn’t work for a long time, and no exceptions were made to reduce bureaucratic hurdles. To be blunt, I question whether exceptions are being made for the Ukrainian refugees because they are white and people from my country are black.

My white DH, who is from the European country that took me in, is upset that the UK is not waiving visa requirements for Ukrainians and only allowing those with family in, rather than anyone seeking refuge. But, he doesn’t really see a problem with how I was treated by his country either, for reasons such as:

1. We fled a civil war whereas Ukraine is being attacked by another country. Countries need to deal with their own problems (but incidentally thinks it was right to intervene in NI / ROI - again white).

1. It’s not his country’s duty to help my country as they didn’t cause the war (but neither did his country cause the Ukraine war yet they are making exceptions for them).

1. Ukraine is geographically closer, although not a direct neighbour (so?)

1. Why am I not upset at the people who caused war in my country (but how is that relevant to the differing treatment I’m now seeing?)

1. Why am I not upset at neighbouring countries, they didn’t help either (again, how is that relevant?)

1. No exceptions were made for Kosovo, Bosnia etc so the Ukraine exceptions are not based on race (can't argue against that!)

I am very grateful that we were able to find safety in Europe and have a great life, but this seems to be upsetting me more than I can rationally explain.

@Jamboree01

All of it… except ‘ I am very sorry for all you and your family have gone through myear.’

What I've said is correct @Jamboree01.

Are you suggesting that NI is not part of the UK?

That the 'UK' does not stand for the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland?

... NI was created in 1921 after the partition of the island of Ireland - there has never been a war/fighting between NI and ROI (or Ireland to give the state its correct name) as the OP has suggested, which is why I queried that point with her.

The British Army were sent to NI in 1969 in response to the increasing sectarian violence that was happening there - in my previous post I described this as the UK (government) intervening in NI. Result - the violence escalated until the Good Friday agreement in 1998.

So...again, if I've made an error, please do me the courtesy of pointing it out. Ridiculous to just say it's all wrong.

A lot of towns in Ireland gave refuge to Nigerian and Congolese people here in the 90s yet there was the Yugoslavian war raging at the time and I don't remember anyone from the former Yugolslavia coming here.
A neighbouring town gave refuge to many Chilean people in the 70s/80s. We have also given refuge to many Syrians and Afghans in recent years who have made Ireland their home. Colour hasn't come into it. Angela Merkel opened the doors in Germany in 2015 for people escaping war torn countries.
Ukraine is geographically close to EU member states, the only other places next to them is Russia and Belarus. They aren't passing through many safe countries to get to the EU. Whether people are deemed as Genuine Refugees or Economic Migrants is where the problem may lie in peoples minds rather than their race.

I'm sorry to have gone so off the point OP.

[quote Why2why]@CarrieHughes, by you logic, we can justify any inhumane behaviour based upon n logic and self-interestedness. Ditch older people they are a burden, don’t give women too many rights, they are physically weaker than men, child labour can be justified, slavery, even what Putin is doing now can be justified if we adopted your reasoning of logic and self-interestedness.

It’s exactly your type of thinking that Putin is adopting to justify his invasion.[/quote]
Again, all wrong.
Older people - they've paid in already, care etc is just what's due to them. Furthermore we'll all be old one day, so obviously everybody now will one day suffer if any policy 'ditches' old people as you so eloquently put it.
Women's rights and the education of children are necessary for the prosperity of the whole country. We want an intelligent, numerate workforce, if 50% of the population don't have equal rights how will we achieve this?

So all of this is logical.

Furthermore if you read my post CAREFULLY the response was to the poster saying that caring more for your neighbours, rather than distance people was irrational.

I merely pointed out that it wasn't. It was logical. Now whether something LOGICAL is also RIGHT is a separate issue. But I never said it was.

You don't seem to be very good at this - maybe take a course on critical thinking? An ad hominem doesn't strengthen your argument.

I don’t discount that there is racism in the attitudes to refugees. But we can’t say if it had any effect in your case op because we don’t know the details. You say that your case was denied 6 times - we don’t know why but as I said Thur most likely reason is that you were not eligible.

That has nothing to do with Ukrainians fleeing war though. Apart from anything else the EU is offering them temporary residence not permanent asylum. If you want to discuss specific details of why your asylum claim was turned down, please do. But it has nothing to do with Ukrainians.

The British Army were sent to NI in 1969 in response to the increasing sectarian violence that was happening there - in my previous post I described this as the UK (government) intervening in NI. Result - the violence escalated until the Good Friday agreement in 1998.

So...again, if I've made an error, please do me the courtesy of pointing it out. Ridiculous to just say it's all wrong.

Interven in secterian violence ???
Educate your self on the reason why there is a war in Ireland, why the british are there at all and why your government claim it is part of the uk.
Ignorent to think the war has stopped because its not all over the media . Brexit : the Uk are happy to break international law at the expense of Ireland and escalating the war .
Did anyone on this thread know that throughout the war in Ireland it has been common practice for northern families to seek refuge in the homes of people in the south of Ireland, somtimes just sending there children so they could escape the worst of the war.
My childhood and home was shared with many of these families/children. My parents are in there 80s and are still in contact with some of these families and still offer refuge to those traumatised and living with the trauma of a British war againest Ireland .

@Jamboree01

There was a campaign of violence and murder against innocent Irish civilians by British state forces who should never have been there.

But, yes, you’re right, colour was totally irrelevant.

I'm from a mixed family, green and orange. The colour might not be on the skin but colour is part of it, your "colour" is determined by the church you go to or the school you go to or even your name.

'@Jamboree01 I don't understand how educating myself will change DH's view of the NI conflict?? As I said, it's his view, not mine.'
Perhaps it's best not to try and make these comparisons with NI. I lived in NI throughout the troubles, my entire childhood and early adult life were affected deeply by the troubles.My experience and perception may be different to others on this thread and that's OK. Innocent people on all sides were murdered and it was fitting that there was intervention, the interventions may have been poorly advised on occasions. To quote one of our best politicians it was a dirty little war.Colonialism may have affected the issues in your area but NI was exclusively British and had to be treated differently.
I've leaving this thread now as it's turning into a whataboutery discussion and I don't need or want to read a revisionism text on the troubles.

Educate your self on the reason why there is a war in Ireland, why the british are there at all and why your government claim it is part of the uk.

I know my history very well indeed and I am Irish Mocara. (If your username is meant to say 'my friend' you need to check the spelling btw.) Obviously, giving a one or two line summary of the situation in NI will necessitate
leaving huge amounts out. This doesn't mean I'm not fully aware of it, or that what I have said isn't correct.

My question to the OP was why she said there was a conflict between NI and ROI when there was not. On reflection, I think I may have misunderstood her. I took this

"thinks it was right to intervene in NI / ROI "

to mean intervening in a conflict between NI and ROI, but I now think that maybe she meant intervening in NI and ROI.

However, the UK hasn't intervened in any war or conflict in Ireland in the years since it became a republic so her statement is confusing either way.

Again, my apologies to the OP, as this is far from the point of her thread I know. It's become a big thing when I just wanted to make a clarification.

However, the UK hasn't intervened in any war or conflict in Ireland in the years since it became a republic so her statement is confusing either way.

Just to clarify before I get jumped on - if it isn't already clear from the sentence, I'm taking about Ireland the state here (aka ROI), not the island of Ireland.

The only revisionism that is going on is yours. Your presuming that I am not from the north of Ireland and you are wrong. The only whataboutery is yours. Take care

Completely missing the point. OP was not referring to green and orange. She was referring to skin colour.

I am from the north of Ireland. I am well versed in how things were and are thanks

@Mocara

The British Army were sent to NI in 1969 in response to the increasing sectarian violence that was happening there - in my previous post I described this as the UK (government) intervening in NI. Result - the violence escalated until the Good Friday agreement in 1998.

So...again, if I've made an error, please do me the courtesy of pointing it out. Ridiculous to just say it's all wrong.

Interven in secterian violence ???
Educate your self on the reason why there is a war in Ireland, why the british are there at all and why your government claim it is part of the uk.
Ignorent to think the war has stopped because its not all over the media . Brexit : the Uk are happy to break international law at the expense of Ireland and escalating the war .
Did anyone on this thread know that throughout the war in Ireland it has been common practice for northern families to seek refuge in the homes of people in the south of Ireland, somtimes just sending there children so they could escape the worst of the war.
My childhood and home was shared with many of these families/children. My parents are in there 80s and are still in contact with some of these families and still offer refuge to those traumatised and living with the trauma of a British war againest Ireland .

🙏🏻👏

I am from the North of Ireland and I am an Irish citizen as is my right. I, like many others do not accept that the north of Ireland is part of the Uk. You might believe that they went in to intervene. That is not why the British army came in, destroyed everything in sight and murdered thousands upon thousands of innocent civilians. Not one paratrooper or soldier has ever served any meaningful time for murder. Even now families are fighting against amnesty proposals. Watch the Ballymurphy documentary and you might start to accept the truth.

I've just seen on the news that Eurostar are going to let Ukrainian refugees travel for free to the UK. What an amazing gesture.

@CayrolBaaaskin

I don’t discount that there is racism in the attitudes to refugees. But we can’t say if it had any effect in your case op because we don’t know the details. You say that your case was denied 6 times - we don’t know why but as I said Thur most likely reason is that you were not eligible.

That has nothing to do with Ukrainians fleeing war though. Apart from anything else the EU is offering them temporary residence not permanent asylum. If you want to discuss specific details of why your asylum claim was turned down, please do. But it has nothing to do with Ukrainians.

No you can’t say if racism played a part in the OP’s case because of course, it’s not about her experience it is all about what you, oh mighty one, assesses it to be. Who is the OP to assess racism through her experience? Racism is only racism if a white person says so. The experience of those on the receiving end of it matters not. They have no clue and do not have the capability or capacity to understand their experiences.

@Why2why my opinion is my opinion not anyone else’s. I don’t see any evidence that ops claim was turned down because of race because she hasn’t given any. That’s why I hold the opinion I do - based on the evidence I am aware of. I don’t know if op herself is altogether sure of a racial element either but her opinion is hers and she is entitled to it.

We all get to have opinions based on evidence. Just because one person thinks something is racist doesn’t mean everyone else has to accept it regardless of the evidence and regardless of the race of any of them (I am from a minority ethnic group bdw not that it’s relevant).

Ultimately though the most important opinion here (in this context at least) from a practical perspective is the opinion of the various courts and tribunals which determine if a person is eligible for asylum. They determined op was not six times. we have no evidence that race had anything to do with that.

@Jamboree01
I am aware of how badly the British Army behaved in NI (and in Ireland as a whole in centuries past). The soldiers were originally welcomed by many of the Catholic community in 1969 though. Intervention could have worked if it was fair-minded. I know it wasn't.

However, all that had nothing to do with my question to the OP.

NI is officially part of the UK, even if you and others don't accept that situation - you can see how your point of view could cause confusion on a thread unless it was explicitly stated at the outset.
For example, when the OP mentioned NI and ROI , I thought of fairly recent history only, post treaty and the formation of the Irish state. You and others here are going back centuries and I see why now - you don't accept NI and ROI. We're talking at cross purposes.

Also we aren’t junior talking about ops experience here - she is comparing herself to others (Ukrainian asylum seekers) and claiming their experience reveals racism. It’s a wider debate (and of course we have to be wary of the bots who have posted to spread negativity about Ukrainians).

Ukraine is a neighbour with a similar way of life, culture, women as equals etc to us - and Russia attacking Ukraine is Russia attacking the West. I'm so glad we're opening up for Ukrainian refugees.

Also - of course we're involved in NI - it's part of the uk!

[quote CayrolBaaaskin]@Why2why my opinion is my opinion not anyone else’s. I don’t see any evidence that ops claim was turned down because of race because she hasn’t given any. That’s why I hold the opinion I do - based on the evidence I am aware of. I don’t know if op herself is altogether sure of a racial element either but her opinion is hers and she is entitled to it.

We all get to have opinions based on evidence. Just because one person thinks something is racist doesn’t mean everyone else has to accept it regardless of the evidence and regardless of the race of any of them (I am from a minority ethnic group bdw not that it’s relevant).

Ultimately though the most important opinion here (in this context at least) from a practical perspective is the opinion of the various courts and tribunals which determine if a person is eligible for asylum. They determined op was not six times. we have no evidence that race had anything to do with that.[/quote]
The OP’s experience is mere opinion to debate against your opinion?

The UK is racist.

@Easymeasy you realise the Op isn't actually even talking about the uk ?

[quote BessieFinknottle]@Jamboree01
I am aware of how badly the British Army behaved in NI (and in Ireland as a whole in centuries past). The soldiers were originally welcomed by many of the Catholic community in 1969 though. Intervention could have worked if it was fair-minded. I know it wasn't.

However, all that had nothing to do with my question to the OP.

NI is officially part of the UK, even if you and others don't accept that situation - you can see how your point of view could cause confusion on a thread unless it was explicitly stated at the outset.
For example, when the OP mentioned NI and ROI , I thought of fairly recent history only, post treaty and the formation of the Irish state. You and others here are going back centuries and I see why now - you don't accept NI and ROI. We're talking at cross purposes.[/quote]
Ballymurphy and Bloody Sunday amongst 1000s of other atrocities were not centuries ago. The trauma that many of us experienced because of the actions of the British army and their state agents was not centuries ago. Speak to some of the victims families and it might give you a more up to date insight. Good day to you.