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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Exceptions for Ukraine refugees

410 replies

myear · 03/03/2022 00:24

I would genuinely be happy if someone can explain to me how IABU so I can feel less upset!

I am pleased for the Ukrainians that the EU is making exceptions for them so that anyone can come in, can get jobs straight away, no need for a visa for 3 years etc, but AIBU to feel bitter about my own treatment as an asylum seeker many many years ago? I can’t help but wonder why these exceptions are made for people fleeing the Ukraine, but not for people who fled my country to survive ethnic cleansing and what the UN found was war crimes against my people.

We had to lie to get a visa to Europe, lie to then get into the country when we were taken away for questioning at the border, apply for asylum 6 times as it kept being rejected, and only got approved on the basis that we had stayed too long to be kicked out, couldn’t work for a long time, and no exceptions were made to reduce bureaucratic hurdles. To be blunt, I question whether exceptions are being made for the Ukrainian refugees because they are white and people from my country are black.

My white DH, who is from the European country that took me in, is upset that the UK is not waiving visa requirements for Ukrainians and only allowing those with family in, rather than anyone seeking refuge. But, he doesn’t really see a problem with how I was treated by his country either, for reasons such as:

  1. We fled a civil war whereas Ukraine is being attacked by another country. Countries need to deal with their own problems (but incidentally thinks it was right to intervene in NI / ROI - again white).
  1. It’s not his country’s duty to help my country as they didn’t cause the war (but neither did his country cause the Ukraine war yet they are making exceptions for them).
  1. Ukraine is geographically closer, although not a direct neighbour (so?)
  1. Why am I not upset at the people who caused war in my country (but how is that relevant to the differing treatment I’m now seeing?)
  1. Why am I not upset at neighbouring countries, they didn’t help either (again, how is that relevant?)
  1. No exceptions were made for Kosovo, Bosnia etc so the Ukraine exceptions are not based on race (can't argue against that!)

I am very grateful that we were able to find safety in Europe and have a great life, but this seems to be upsetting me more than I can rationally explain.

OP posts:
Im2022 · 03/03/2022 23:53

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deragod · 04/03/2022 01:43

@Im2022

Ukraine and Poland have different culture.
Pregnant women are prioritised in ques, men know to gave up the seat on the bus/tram for pregnant women. Thus, in situation like that men are made to walk because they are physically stronger, do not get pregnant and tend to not have periods. And young students dont have children to take care of .

Children were alredy born on the trias to Poland. I am glad that those women were not walking to the border.

It's funny, how VladmirsPoutine can see injustice but not when it comes to Ukraine.
Ukraine wasn't treated by the West any better. They were used, the West wasnt that keen on making a fuss about attack in 2014.
Georgia in 2008 also couldn't rely on the West.

CayrolBaaaskin · 04/03/2022 05:51

@Im2022 - where did you get that information from? There is no evidence of any “ethnic cleansing” carried out by Ukraine at the present time as far as I am aware.

CarrieHughes · 04/03/2022 06:50

@Kendodd

As an aside I remember years ago hearing about psychological studies with people around the world asking who's life you would save. I think I'm remembering correctly. People were given the option, they could save 100 of their neighbours, all people they didn't know, or they could save 101 people in some far off land, again, people they didn't know. So for example they would ask people people from the UK, to choose between saving say 100 Dutch people or 101 Vietnamese people. People across the world all chose to save their neighbours for some reason even though the most logical choice would be to do the most good and save more people. I'll try to find the study. Also, I don't know how the responses could be dressed up as anything other than racism, people all over the world responded the same way though.
Wrong. The most logical choice as a self-interested human would be to save people who would benefit you. Meaning neighbours.

Faraway people dying has zero impact so why bother.

Is it morally abhorrent? I’ll leave that to you.
Is it logical? Yes.

‘All human life’ is not the same. And it’s NEVER ‘just’ human life. It’s economics, politics, reciprocity. Also scarcity.

Im2022 · 04/03/2022 07:20

@deragod www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-africa-60573719
This isn’t a man. It’s a black woman made to walk. Listen to her when she says the problem is at the Ukraine border, they will shout and beat you if you’re black. There was a Pakistani trainee doctor on the news the other day saying they asked for weapons to fight, but were told only Ukraines were allowed to help.

@CayrolBaaaskin this is from the Russian ambassador’s speech in New York on Monday. They say there was evidence Of it happening. We don’t know. But I’m making my own judgement by how Ukraine are treating people who are black. When there is hate embedded in you, anything can happen.

Why2why · 04/03/2022 08:10

@CarrieHughes, by you logic, we can justify any inhumane behaviour based upon n logic and self-interestedness. Ditch older people they are a burden, don’t give women too many rights, they are physically weaker than men, child labour can be justified, slavery, even what Putin is doing now can be justified if we adopted your reasoning of logic and self-interestedness.

It’s exactly your type of thinking that Putin is adopting to justify his invasion.

User121212121212121212 · 04/03/2022 14:32

@Im2022

This whole thing is making me despise the world. White supremacy at its worst. Black and brown people studying in Ukraine being blocked from getting on buses and trains out of Ukraine by officials telling them only Ukrainian citizens are allowed. They’re being made to walk 18-20 hours because only white people are allowed on buses. It’s very sad what’s happening, but my sympathy is wearing thin. How the fuck can you remain a racist cunt when your country is being invaded? Black and brown people have no status? They’re not humans? They’re not even allowing these people to fight for them, yet the president is waiving visas inviting people into the country to fight. So they only want white people? Makes me wonder if the Russian “ethnic cleansing” claim is true.
Give your head a wobble. There is a word for people who spout nonsense like you about 'ethnic cleansing' - useful idiots. You're clearly a xenophobe, who is using the situation to show how much you hate Ukrainians or white people in general.
User121212121212121212 · 04/03/2022 14:36

@Why2why
There is another thread where you can express your anger about treatment of African students in Ukraine, go comment there. This one is discussing why EU decided on different approach toward Ukrainians vs different refugees and this has been explained many times by different posters. Even OP understood that it's a different and more complex situation, but in your world everything is simple.

Im2022 · 04/03/2022 17:24

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HowtoStop · 04/03/2022 17:27

[quote User121212121212121212]@Why2why
There is another thread where you can express your anger about treatment of African students in Ukraine, go comment there. This one is discussing why EU decided on different approach toward Ukrainians vs different refugees and this has been explained many times by different posters. Even OP understood that it's a different and more complex situation, but in your world everything is simple.[/quote]
So you’re on here trying to shut down comments of maltreatment of Indian, Pakistani and African students in Ukraine. It’s not a complex situation. Fact is that most of Europe is racist. The far right Polish groups are using this opportunity to commit disgusting crimes against those of colour. And all you can say is use a different thread or label people as xenophobic. Admit it, you’re a proper racist aren’t you? No need to hide it, we’re all strangers here.

deragod · 04/03/2022 18:09

Russia can claim whatever.
But seriously Russian imperialism isn't nicer or better than American.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circassian_genocide

www.britannica.com/place/Gulag

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deportation_of_the_Crimean_Tatars

An the list goes and goes.
It would be really better, as I alredy said if people without any knowledge about Ukraine and Poland without any idea about the history of Russian imperialism will restrain from making big statements.

VladmirsPoutine · 04/03/2022 18:19

Curious really.... AirBnB is suspending operations in Russia but still operates in west bank and Sainsbury's is changing their Chicken Kiev to Chicken Kyiv but apparently when it comes israeli products "customers know best."

myear · 04/03/2022 18:24

To those who questioned whether this thread is part of Putin using cyber to create hatred for Ukrainians, and telling me to admit I hate the Irish - words fail me!!

To those who feel we “targeted” western countries - I am not 100% sure why we went to the EU country that we did. I know it’s not where my mum wanted to go, but our neighbouring countries didn’t want to upset our government that was committing these atrocities, so we couldn’t go there. The next countries along were I think USSR, which I imagine wouldn’t have taken us, so we went further west.

This will probably be my last post as I don't have much more to add.

I spent most of yesterday in tears for various reasons, mainly because of sadness for people in the Ukraine, the reminders of the things that have happened to my family, and the difference around how western countries treated asylum seekers from my part of the world. But after a good night’s sleep and reading through the posts of many kind posters who helped me think through why things might be different, I feel much better now and have a better understanding.

Part of my issue is that I struggle with my identity. Having lived here for 30 years I feel British, yet sometimes, like on this thread, I am reminded that I am not 100% accepted as one of “you”. The EU country that took me in, while it has often treated me with kindness, it has often also made me feel like an outsider. For example, when it comes to official / legal matters, despite having full citizenship of that country, more stringent processes apply to me compared to others because of my ethnicity. It’s enshrined in law. And when it comes to my mother’s country, while I look like one of them, I have little connection because I barely spent any time there. Seeing EU countries say “you are one of us” to the Ukrainians has brought it home that I am not seen like that. So where is my home? Where will I be treated as “one of us”?

I was positively surprised to find out yesterday that up until 10 years ago, the Home Office guidelines stated that refugees from my country have a credible claim. The document described the dangers my people faced during the time we fled. So unlike some here who felt that the asylum system of the EU country was working correctly to send victims of genocide and war crimes back to my country, thankfully the Home Office, at least on paper, have more compassion. Who would have thought that!!

To those who questioned why I'm not grateful for having something I'm clearly not entitled to as we were rejected 6 times - while I hurt that my family wasn’t treated with the same kindness that I see the same (non bordering) EU country offering the Ukrainians, at the same time I am really grateful for everything I have.

I am grateful that the country let me go to school and get an education. Yes, the school segregated all the “problem background” people into one class and my mum had to come to the school every day at break time to stop other children beating me up for my colour, but the teachers were kind to me. I am grateful that they let me spend break times in the teachers break room, when my mum couldn’t come to supervise. In my home country, my education would have been disrupted by war.

I am grateful for free access to libraries. My mum used to spend hours there reading law books with a dictionary to try and understand what visas, permits etc we were entitled to, and photocopying the right pages. When we got turned down for certain things, she would pull out her research and show the officers that they are wrong, and they would begrudgingly oblige. It wasn’t a problem with the system, it was people who were administering the system who didn’t want to help.

I am grateful for the kind people who helped us on the way. Our neighbour spent a lot of time with my mum helping her to learn to read, write and speak the language. Others gave us clothes and toys.

I am grateful not to live in a war zone and have access to food etc.

Once mum received permission to work, we didn’t claim any benefits even though we were entitled. My mother felt it would be stealing from the people who belong to the country and we don't belong, so we lived in poverty, counting pennies to buy food before pay day.

My life is now so so privileged. My company is looking at sponsoring to bring our Ukraine colleagues to the UK and I am in a position to be able to offer to share my home with someone. I can only do this due to the opportunities western countries have given me to get an education and a good job.

At the same time, I am sad that no country flexed their rules to make things easier for me - particularly the UK and some other EU countries, who colonised my country and partially contributed to the problems my people faced.

But life isn’t fair. And when I think about it, it's not fair that I have far more than most people in the world, and so I’m eternally grateful for everything I have.

OP posts:
ChardonnaysPetDragon · 04/03/2022 18:56

Why are you talking about what's fair or not? You did post that you lied to get where you are now, and now you are begrudging reception of legitimate refugees?

Doesn't make sense to me, but It seems to make sense to you.

EeeICouldRipATissue · 04/03/2022 19:19

Why are you talking about what's fair or not

Because it's literally what the AIBU is about?
Whether it's preferential treatment and some getting treated differently to others?
Do you have a problem with somebody sharing their experience?

ChardonnaysPetDragon · 04/03/2022 19:42

No, but I have a problem with someone lying to get what they are after.

VladmirsPoutine · 04/03/2022 19:46

@ChardonnaysPetDragon

No, but I have a problem with someone lying to get what they are after.
Even if the difference is hedged between life and death?
ForeverSingle881 · 04/03/2022 19:47

YABU. The location, nature of the war and the profile of refugees makes a huge difference. This is an all out war in Europe. This will destabilise Europe, which is now under threat of a war with Russia and a possible WW3. Of course Russia invading a huge European country matters more to people than a civil war on another continent. It is also the duty of neighbouring countries to offer refuge. Moreover, the vast majority are women and children and old people. These are not 25 year old men who cause a lot more social problems and for whom people naturally have less sympathy. Ukraine is not letting most men to leave the country, they have to stay and fight.

The fact is this war is hitting very close to home. This is a conflict that will engulf Europe and the UK. There is nothing racist about being worried about a war so near where we live, with such dire consequences to our every day lives (and finances!) and wanting to help out our neighbours.

HRTQueen · 04/03/2022 19:48

You have a problem parents lying to protect their children keep them safe protect their own lives ?

The lack of compassion in this thread is staggering

ChardonnaysPetDragon · 04/03/2022 19:52

But it wasn't a matter of life and death, in OP's case? This is what she's saying.

We had to lie to get a visa to Europe, lie to then get into the country when we were taken away for questioning at the border, apply for asylum 6 times as it kept being rejected, and only got approved on the basis that we had stayed too long to be kicked out, couldn’t work for a long time, and no exceptions were made to reduce bureaucratic hurdles. To be blunt, I question whether exceptions are being made for the Ukrainian refugees because they are white and people from my country are black.

She had a visa for Europe, where she would have been safe, she lied to come here.

The refugees from Ukraine are in danger of their lives now, and she's bitter that they receive what she sees as preferential treatment, even though she's managed quite nicely for herself.

Sorry.

HRTQueen · 04/03/2022 19:52

It’s nonsense that we are more accepting because it’s old people, women and children

The EU would be supporting all fleeing (as we should be)

ChardonnaysPetDragon · 04/03/2022 19:55

Oh and this

My white DH, who is from the European country that took me in, is upset that the UK is not waiving visa requirements for Ukrainians and only allowing those with family in, rather than anyone seeking refuge. But, he doesn’t really see a problem with how I was treated by his country either, for reasons such as:

OP played the system, the Ukrainians are fleeing for their lives.

HRTQueen · 04/03/2022 19:57

ChardonnaysPetDragon how convenient you missed the part where the op informs us she was a child and her mother was in her 20’s and didn’t want to return as she didn’t want to die

But carry on ….

ChardonnaysPetDragon · 04/03/2022 19:58

How convenient you missed the whole of her OP.

myear · 04/03/2022 19:58

@ChardonnaysPetDragon

You have misunderstood. I entered the UK legally.

We had to lie to get a visa to the European country, while we were still at home. This is because you can't claim asylum from abroad. You can only claim asylum once you are in the country.

Then when we arrived at the border of the European country, at passport control we had to lie again to be let in, otherwise they would have put us on a plane back to death.

Then when our asylum kept getting rejected, we had to lie and exaggerate to appeal.

Now imagine the Ukrainians had to do the same to save their lives and get themselves to Germany. It would be a travesty.

OP posts:
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