Somebody explain why Russians believe Ukraine is part or Russia....

[jobhunter7]

I know it used to be part of the Russian Empire. But do they believe the same about Poland or Finland which were too? And what other former parts of the USSR do they believe to be still basically Russia.

If Pupski touches a NATO country, be it Estonia or UK, NATO will act. That's the whole point of it, its raison d'etre as a defensive military alliance.
Shitsky will hit the fansky and Russia knows this. By directly threatening Finland and Sweden Russia demonstrated that, as these countries are not part of NATO.
Ukraine is fighting for whole Europe, no, for the whole world. They are drawing Russian military resources, hardware for which will be difficult to replenish due to the sanctions.
The longer Ukraine fights back, the more Russian might weakens.

@merrymouse

Kyiv (Kiev) is the birthplace of Russia since medieval times.

Normandy was the ‘birth place’ of the Norman Kings of England and it was hundreds of years till the English finally lost Calais, but nobody cares about that now.

I think Putin’s claims on Crimea have more to do with strategic military importance of access to the Black Sea and his ego.

I'm not sure this is important in terms of trying to trace people's sense of either being part of the same people, or, alternately, of enmity.

Speaking of Ireland for example, we can easily go back before England claimed to rule there to a time when Irish raiders were feared in English coastal towns and took slaves back with them. Did this kind of feeling about the Other affect ongoing sentiment of the English towards the Irish, even generations after it stopped? I suspect it did even though the reasons for it might have been forgotten.

I really think that where these sentiments of fear or alienation, or belonging and identity exist that people will find justifications around political arrangements. And it's not unique to aggressor nations.

It can be very interesting to consider how long it takes peoples to really leave these kinds of thoughts in the past and see them as history rather than as part of their current identity. It seems to me that in some cases it can last centuries, even a thousand years.

Then we have some modern nations where that kind of thinking is very much subdued. It's not at all clear to me that this is a function of time so much as a real change in thinking.

I think a better analogy for Englanders would be if Scotland decided to suddenly annexe Berwick-upon-Tweed this week.

And a better analogy of NI would be Karelia Oblast in Russia. Transfer 'agrees' in similar circumstances really.

@Mrsjayy

The Russian Empire and Ussr are not the same. Basically Putin is of the old Ussr and is "insulted" that Ukraine is independent . The man's a psychopath

I suspect though he is harking back to the Russian Empire as much as the old USSR idea. Look what he's done with the Church.

Then we have some modern nations where that kind of thinking is very much subdued. It's not at all clear to me that this is a function of time so much as a real change in thinking.

I think that is just the current state of politics.

We are all just human, and the reason the U.K. doesn’t fear invasion by e.g. Norway (vikings!) is because of our political situation now, not something intrinsic to our being.

However recent events in the U.K. and America have shown how easy it is to cynically whip up nationalism.

“@merrymouse
However recent events in the U.K. and America have shown how easy it is to cynically whip up nationalism.“

Yes, and even on this thread matters relating to Ireland seem to hit raw nerves.

There’s always someone just waiting to take offence at something. Look at any mumsnet thread, ever.
Get all these people together with a few weapons, conscript the rest and you have a war.

@IvorCutler

It’s nothing like Ireland! It’d be more like the UK coming back for control of the republic than NI uniting with ROI.

Yes, it’s more like if Boris had been brooding for years that the answer to all U.K. problems was not letting go of NI (which actually I think he would LOVE to do in reality) but to roll in to the republic (just calling it the republic to differentiate it from the island of ireland before ye all huff on to say ‘it’s just IRELAND, actually’) with the tanks all blazing and raze dublin to the ground with thermobaric weapons while Leo varadker etc are like ‘wtACTUALf’ throwing Molotov cocktails in Guinness bottles from the roof of Leinster house and obvs the rest of the world would be like ‘what the fuck are you doing you psychotic maniac’

And Boris being all ‘I love history and the power of these United isles etc and telling people in Norwich that the people of belfast WANTED him to do it.

Is actually a better historical comparison.

I'd think it has to do with the imperialist legacy. My country (England) regularly sent our troops to invade, murder, rape and exploit other countries, including (bot not only) our neighbors. It's what imperialists do. You really don't have to go back far ... and we were Russia/Putin.

Several Russian people work at the same company as me, and I've never heard one stating support for the invasion. But for those in Russia? I really have no idea.

I think Ireland isn’t quite the same because the impact of the conflict is still tangible for people now.

We were indeed Putin/Russia, until very very recently. Here's a recent piece from New Yorker, and think about the dates

www.newyorker.com/magazine/2020/11/02/misremembering-the-british-empire

Perfect description @meloncolic

@meloncolic the accuracy of this! Yes, this is the more accurate hypothetical comparison.

Finland and Poland were in the USSR? Ummm... wow

@NorthFaceofthelaundrypile

Read Prisoners of Geography by Tim Marshall. Does a great job of explaining how vital having the access to the Black Sea via Crimea is to Russia.

I was just going to post this. I've just finished it, and you would think it had been published just this week it's so relevant to recent events.

Basically Putin and his cronies have the power and might to do exactly what they want with respect to neighbors. To date, the words and the sanctions seem to mean nothing to those with the levers of power. There is an analogy here to rape, there is NO consideration of the victim. They feel there are entitled to do what they want regardless.

Yes, we were the same in the not too distance past. However, the social and economic impacts of WWI and WW2 put an end to it.

Let's hope that Russia can undergo the same transformation we did. It took time, and we didn't do it willingly, but it happened. Fingers crossed!!

Yes, it’s more like if Boris had been brooding for years that the answer to all U.K. problems was not letting go of NI (which actually I think he would LOVE to do in reality)

I’m not denying that there would never be a situation where this would be the case, but with the benefit of hind sight and sanity, all the pain death and expense of the conflict hasn’t had political benefits for any U.K. government. As has been noted on this thread, awareness of NI is low in England.

Brexit showed how easy it is to create conflict where previously feelings were low, but England is generally indifferent to maintenance of the Union.

DW is from a former Soviet-controlled country, her mother and grandmother have fond memories of life under Soviet rule.
I think they found comfort in having the basics of life, work-there own farm-accommodation. Even though by western standards it was in fact abject poverty. When she shows me photos of her childhood, everyone seems happy.
There's a lot of cultural homogeneity with Russia all across the Central and Eastern parts of Europe. The identity is steeped in history.

Although I feel Putin has gone too far, this time.

DW is from a former Soviet-controlled country, her mother and grandmother have fond memories of life under Soviet rule.

But Putin isn’t offering Soviet rule. He is offering ‘seizing the natural assets and dividing them up amongst my cronies so they can stash the profits elsewhere and buy a super yacht rule’.

@Windbeneathmybingowings

I think of it like Northern Ireland and the UK in a broad sense. Some want a united ireland and some don’t. Putin wants a united USSR.

Oh my....where to even begin with this comment.

It would be more like the UK wanting the REPUBLIC OF IRELAND to rejoin the "United" Kingdom than the Irish in the 26 counties wanting a 32 county Republic of Ireland.

Time to go back and learn Anglo-Irish History (the last 800 years or so should be enough to give you a good understanding of the events).

Then you can start to read up on the historical events that have lead up to the War in Ukraine.

@MorningStarling - I'm not sure how the Ireland situation is comparable or relevant. The Irish people (southern Ireland) are originally from what is now the UK anyway

Oh FFS! Jesus wept!!! Where to start in with this.

For those of you in England (less so Scotland and Wales) that have a difficulty in picking up a history book or even Googling what the situation was like in Ireland, there were IRISH people living in IRELAND (in the 32 counties of our island) BEFORE the British invaded our country. We were a quite content little nation on the fringes of the Atlantic Ocean.

Oh and the term you're looking for MorningStarling is people in the Republic of Ireland. Southern Ireland is Cork, Kerry, Waterford, Wexford. That would be like saying Southern Scotland, meaning Devon, Cornwall, The Isle of Wight etc.

@merrymouse

DW is from a former Soviet-controlled country, her mother and grandmother have fond memories of life under Soviet rule.

But Putin isn’t offering Soviet rule. He is offering ‘seizing the natural assets and dividing them up amongst my cronies so they can stash the profits elsewhere and buy a super yacht rule’.

What's the point in that. The oligarchs all left Russia to stay alive. Where's Putin to going to spend this money on the global market. I think it's a power move. Although one which has sealed his fate and place in history. Not as a moderate moderniser but a tyrant.

@Usernameinsponeeded

I’m Russian and I don’t think this. Please don’t paint an entire nation with one brush...

I think most people realise that ordinary Russians have no desire for this war

I'm from ROI , living in NI and I didn't take offence to the comments made by the poster who compared the Irish situation to what's happening . It was completely hypothetical which the poster made clear and in my view she was just making it more relevant by using an example with countries that we are more familiar with , which have had a turbulent past