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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

Somebody explain why Russians believe Ukraine is part or Russia....

192 replies

jobhunter7 · 02/03/2022 20:58

I know it used to be part of the Russian Empire. But do they believe the same about Poland or Finland which were too? And what other former parts of the USSR do they believe to be still basically Russia.

OP posts:
jojojane · 03/03/2022 10:44

To those comparing in this situation to Northern Ireland.

Do you believe England to be the aggressor (Putin) in these comparisons? Given their initial invasion of Ireland.

merrymouse · 03/03/2022 10:57

Do you believe England to be the aggressor (Putin) in these comparisons? Given their initial invasion of Ireland.

I don’t know whether the comparison works, but I don’t think Henry II or Oliver Cromwell were overly concerned about what the general populace in England thought.

IvorCutler · 03/03/2022 11:13

Yes @jojane, that’s what I was getting at with my comment. I live in Ireland. I’m also gobsmacked by the level of ignorance.

Whatswrongwithakipper · 03/03/2022 11:23

Most young Russians don’t believe that what is happening is right or fair. I have a large Russian team based in Russia and they are all appalled that their government is involved in this and are scared and horrified for their lives and that of the people of Ukraine

MaMaLa321 · 03/03/2022 11:28

so - what's the AIBU?
the internet is full of information on this, the Ros Atkins short videos are especially good.
Do you really think the best way is to rock up and ask a load of randoms on MN?
I hate the phrase 'educate yourself' but really!

ChiefPearlClutcher · 03/03/2022 11:30

Our Polish friends said on day 2 of the invasion that Moldova will be next.

ChiefPearlClutcher · 03/03/2022 11:31

Apologies I meant to reply to @BitOutOfPractice

CharlotteRose90 · 03/03/2022 11:35

Moldova is next that idiot from Belarus admitted it the other day then it got covered up. This war has been going on for years and won’t stop for a while. Putin is the new hitler and deserves shooting .

EmpressCixi · 03/03/2022 11:35

Because history.
Kyiv (Kiev) is the birthplace of Russia since medieval times. It was the capital city of Russia...known as Kievan Rus from 482 for almost a thousand years until the Mongols invaded. The Russians then won independence piece meal making Moscow their new capital and not taking back Ukraine and Kiev until 1480. Then Ukraine and Kiev were part of Russia until 1921. Then after WWII, Ukraine was behind the iron curtain and while nominally a separate country was under USSR control until 1991. Russia has been trying to take back the Ukraine since 2014.

RitaFires · 03/03/2022 11:36

I think only one person on thread has said Ireland is like Russia, everyone else is saying Ireland is in the Ukraine role. Even the Russian defence minister when he was trying to make an analogy used Ireland in the Ukraine role and the UK as Russian equivalent.

Unfortunately the Ireland Russia comparison is a bit of Unionist talking point and turns up a lot on reddit and the likes. As an Irish person I find it better to just try and avoid reading it, Northern Ireland seems to be like the immaculate conception, people think they know about it but often what they think is totally wrong.

DottyDoge · 03/03/2022 11:42

Surely the Ireland / UK parallel is hypothetical. Am I misunderstanding something?

merrymouse · 03/03/2022 11:45

Kyiv (Kiev) is the birthplace of Russia since medieval times.

Normandy was the ‘birth place’ of the Norman Kings of England and it was hundreds of years till the English finally lost Calais, but nobody cares about that now.

I think Putin’s claims on Crimea have more to do with strategic military importance of access to the Black Sea and his ego.

EmpressCixi · 03/03/2022 11:49

Can’t really compare U.K. and Ireland to Russia and Ukraine. This is because Ireland started out a fully independent country, ethnicity and language. The invasion of Ireland occurred when England’s Norman invaders expanded from England into invading Wales, Ireland and Scotland (as well as constant wars with France to hold on to their French territories and duchies). So that’s a foreign Norman power invading & conquering England and then invading the surrounding different kingdoms of the British Isles.

Ukraine started out as the original Russian kingdom in the 400s founded by Vikings that then expanded north and east into the Russia we know today as well as south into Crimea as part of their river trade link to the Arab ME. For a few hundred years Ukraine was occupied by the Mongols while the rest of Russia fought to gain their lands back in the 1400s. So when Ukraine was liberated back to Russia, Moscow was by then the new capital of Russia as Kyiv had been under Mongol rule. Ukraine only split off from Russia as a separate sovereign nation a century ago.

The two can’t really be compared as the history is too different.

jojojane · 03/03/2022 11:51

@IvorCutler

Yes *@jojane*, that’s what I was getting at with my comment. I live in Ireland. I’m also gobsmacked by the level of ignorance.
Irish, living in England. I'm often gobsmacked at how little people know about NI, and make zero attempt to learn, yet when it suits their narrative, they feel they have a right to comment. And usually those comments are insulting and disrespectful. And incorrect!

I understand the comparison was hypothetical, I get that. But the way in which it has been worded, shows a deep ignorance to the actual difficulties and history of Ireland. So why make an example of a real situation you know nothing about, I just don't understand.

merrymouse · 03/03/2022 11:55

Ukraine only split off from Russia as a separate sovereign nation a century ago.

Many (most?) countries in Europe didn’t exist in their current form 100 years ago. That isn’t unusual.

Thereisnolight · 03/03/2022 11:57

@mathanxiety

I think of it like Northern Ireland and the UK in a broad sense. Some want a united ireland and some don’t. Putin wants a united USSR.

Or alternatively, some want a chunk of Ireland to be in the UK and some do not.

Feelings still grumble on re Northern Ireland with a few hardliners on both sides. But the vast majority on both sides prioritise their ability to simply walk safely by the sea (which was here long before any of us snd will be here long after we’ve all left) above whatever colour flag may have been hung up over one building. All it might take though is a committed narcissist on one side or the other with a glory complex to decide to stoke up tension. Currently the average NI citizen has less than zero interest in a war regardless of their flag preference - a result of their elders on both sides making the decision to bite their lips and swallow their pride and let things go - but I must admit I was taken aback talking to some Polish colleagues re the depth of their rage and willingness to fight. The mindset in this generation over there is different to what we’ve become used to here. One Polish person said to me that we lived in paradise and could never understand.
merrymouse · 03/03/2022 11:58

All it might take though is a committed narcissist on one side or the other with a glory complex to decide to stoke up tension.

Agree

Thereisnolight · 03/03/2022 12:00

Oops - I see that there are a lot of people prepared to take offence at the Ireland analogy. I have NI roots and I wish they wouldn’t. It’s pretty obvious what the first poster meant and they didn’t mean to be offensive.

MorningStarling · 03/03/2022 12:03

I'm not sure how the Ireland situation is comparable or relevant. The Irish people (southern Ireland) are originally from what is now the UK anyway. They spread there and drove the previous inhabitants out, who went to Scotland and removed the previous occupants from there (the Picts).

Nobody is actually suggesting that Ireland is forcibly made to join a customs union with the UK or be incorporated as a part of the UK. It's just a good idea that would solve a lot of problems for both countries, but nobody is forcing it to happen it would need to be decided in a referendum in both countries.

That could/should have been what happened in Ukraine. If a majority of people wanted to rejoin Russia that would have been the way to resolve i.

Mrsjayy · 03/03/2022 12:04

The Russian Empire and Ussr are not the same. Basically Putin is of the old Ussr and is "insulted" that Ukraine is independent . The man's a psychopath

Bluecatsalltheway · 03/03/2022 12:10

I read on foreign political website that a leak document showed next one will be Moldova if Ukraine will be going well for him.

merrymouse · 03/03/2022 12:16

@Mrsjayy

The Russian Empire and Ussr are not the same. Basically Putin is of the old Ussr and is "insulted" that Ukraine is independent . The man's a psychopath
Not just independent, but being ‘western’. That really threatens his dick size. He therefore has to send Russian 18 year old conscripts to die.
ThatsBullshirt · 03/03/2022 12:21

@zoeFromCity

Latvia, Estonia and Lithuania are NATO members, and NATO (or specifically Poland, US, Turkey and rest of EU) are now up and ready to do something, so not a great target.

If Ukraine went well for Russia, Moldova or officialy adding Belarus would be more probable targets.

I find this absolutely terrifying as someone with Estonian family - not that it's not terrifying what is going on in Ukraine right now! But I think you are right. Ukraine is just the first country of probably many that he has his sights set on in a bid to restore the USSR/Russian Empire. I just hope he never gets the chance to get that far.
ThatsBullshirt · 03/03/2022 12:23

Sorry @zoeFromCity quoted the wrong message.

MangyInseam · 03/03/2022 12:27

I understand it was a hypothetical post, but it's completely skewed in favour of the original aggressor, and comparisons to Ukraine are completely off.

I think that's because the OP is trying to understand how someone like Putin or a Russian would conceptualize it. That's the whole point of the question.

Ireland is just an example that people here might find more intuitive.