Somebody explain why Russians believe Ukraine is part or Russia....

[jobhunter7]

I know it used to be part of the Russian Empire. But do they believe the same about Poland or Finland which were too? And what other former parts of the USSR do they believe to be still basically Russia.

I think of it like Northern Ireland and the UK in a broad sense. Some want a united ireland and some don’t. Putin wants a united USSR.

Or alternatively, some want a chunk of Ireland to be in the UK and some do not.

There are in fact pro-Russia people in Ukraine. Just as at one time there were pro-Russia people in Finland (I don't know if there are any now.) Who people feel connected to in terms of national identity is not always as simple as modern borders, language and religion often have a lot to do with it. Those things are tangible while lines on a map can be abstract and arbitrary.

Keep in mind that there are many many Russian speaking households in Ukraine, I believe it is almost half. There is also a split between people who are Ukrainian Catholic and Russian Orthodox and I think somewhat more of the latter, which means they have a connection to the Russian Patriarch who is very pro-Russia as you might expect. It would be very easy for Putin and other Russians to think of people who have Russian as a cradle tongue and who are Orthodox as their own people.

@jobhunter7,
I found this a helpful video
m.youtube.com/watch?v=nK-yJD_fAtk

Who people feel connected to in terms of national identity is not always as simple as modern borders, language and religion often have a lot to do with it. Those things are tangible while lines on a map can be abstract and arbitrary.

I think this point needs to be emphasised. Borders are not static, even within the islands off the northwest coast.

www.visualcapitalist.com/2400-years-of-european-history/
This is an animation of Europe's ever-changing boundaries and borders from 400BC to the present day.

I’m Russian and I don’t think this. Please don’t paint an entire nation with one brush...

Not sure if this link will work, it's long but really interesting, helped me understand a lot

Crimea was always Russian. It was historically not part of Ukraine, but Khrushchev gifted crimea to Ukraine in 1954 thinking this would just be a formality (given that it was all USSR) but when Ukraine became independent, Crimea went with it.

If you want to be historical about it, it's the other way around (according to a show on BBC Radio the other day). What is now Crimean was a part / satellite of the Kievan Rus which existed before Russia. What is now Crimea became part of the Russian empire at the end of the 18th Century, and as others pointed out, was given to Ukraine in 1954.

So, it's not correct to say Crimea was always Russian.

Even so, none of that gives anyone a right to invade anyone.

@aramox not according to his speeches, Putin wants to unite the Great Russia, containing Russia, Belarus - already in its pocket - and Ukraine, ass Slavic countries.
He has also alluded to the Great Russian Empire but never to ussr.

@eatsleep... there are not so many cultural similarities between Baltic countries and Russia/ Slavic ones.
The ethnic Russians who live there were sent by Stalin to replace the parts of native populace who were killed by the Red Army or sent to Gulags.

I don’t know how well comparisons to Ireland stand up, but that example does demonstrate how difficult it is to rule without consent.

@FrothyB Well put.

@YouSayYesISayNo

I agree with likening it with the Ireland/NI/UK scenario.

Suppose the UK decided there was a danger that Ireland would take NI by force (because it used to be part of Ireland). There is no evidence that Ireland is going to do so, but the suggestion has been made.

So the UK decides to invade Ireland. They are going to cleanse the island of Ireland from Irish Nationalists who want a United Ireland. They send in troops to take Dublin and Cork, and spread out to the whole island. They are liberating the unionists (in the north) by neutralising the threat that Ireland might take over NI.

Obviously Ireland would be pretty pissed off. After all, they have no intention of illegally annexing NI. They are an independent country; the UK has no right to invade.

I really hope that in that situation NATO would step in (despite Ireland not being a member) and tell the UK to fuck off

You have got this so backward it's unbelievable.

This level of ignorance about Ireland fucking angers me.

And by the way, any wanting to read up on Putin and Ukraine, I'd suggest this

www.politico.com/news/magazine/2022/02/28/world-war-iii-already-there-00012340

Putin wrote an article titled "On The Historical Unity of Russians and Ukrainians" where he argues that Russians and the Ukraine are one people "of what is essentially the same historical and spiritual space" that the division between the two countries is due to a deliberate effort by those forces who have always sought to undermine our unity. He basically blames the West.

The most telling line in the article is

"that the demise of the Soviet Union was the greatest geopolitical catastrophe of the century. As for the Russian people, it became a genuine tragedy. Tens of millions of our fellow citizens and countrymen found themselves beyond the fringes of Russian territory"

Not WWII but the collapse of the USSR as the biggest catastrophe.

There is a really good talk from Cambridge University King's College politics department about the US's involvement and why Putin has invaded well worth a a watch or listen.

This level of ignorance about Ireland fucking angers me.

The example is completely hypothetical and there is no suggestion that it would be justified.

“There is no evidence that Ireland is going to do so, but the suggestion has been made.”

“After all, they have no intention of illegally annexing NI. They are an independent country; the UK has no right to invade.”

[quote EmpressaurusWitchDoesntBurn]I read this that explained the background. www.chathamhouse.org/2021/11/ukraine-russia-relations[/quote]
Thanks for this useful link!

@merrymouse

This level of ignorance about Ireland fucking angers me.

The example is completely hypothetical and there is no suggestion that it would be justified.

“There is no evidence that Ireland is going to do so, but the suggestion has been made.”

“After all, they have no intention of illegally annexing NI. They are an independent country; the UK has no right to invade.”

The idea that Ireland would be "illegally annexing NI" 🙄

I understand it was a hypothetical post, but it's completely skewed in favour of the original aggressor, and comparisons to Ukraine are completely off.

RedWingBoots

MrsSkylerWhite
Crimea is not Ukraine?
It is Ukraine.

Borders in countries change all the time but the population of that part of the country needs to agree to the change, and then it has to be recognised internationally.“

I know. Hence the question mark. I put it badly.

@FrothyB

Whilst we in the UK have been encouraged for the most part to see our cultural roots as unimportant, as we are all the same, anyone can be British, we can take the favourable bits of different cultures and use then to make our own more vibrant etc, that is not often the case in other parts of the world, even in Europe.

England as a country has been pretty well defined for over 1000 years. Great Britain as a singular entity for nearly 300 iirc. We haven't lost land, we haven't been conquered, or ruled by an outside force (from a purely English perspective), so we can't understand the emotions of what drives a conflict like this.

Consider the Scottish independence vote. 45% was it that said yes to leaving the union? And that's before the issue of Brexit came into the picture. Consider the troubles in Northern Ireland.

As another example, Hungary was chopped up in 1920, with lands Hungary had owned for hundreds of years given away to other nations, including half of what is now Romania, and indeed a section of Ukraine which is known as Karpatalja. These regions held many ethnic Hungarians who were suddenly separated from their countrymen, from their culture. In the areas where they are a majority, they still fly Hungarian flags, speak the Hungarian language primarily and refuse to be Slovak, Ukrainian, Serbian etc in any meaningful way, and the break up of greater Hungary is still felt keenly by many in modern day Hungary. That is after 100 years. 3 generations at least have never known greater Hungary, or have lived in "Hungary" yet the feeling is still so strong.

That's what is at the heart of this war, at least for the men and women on the ground. Bringing those they see as brothers and sisters back into the fold. Reclaiming land lost to them that had been historically theirs for centuries, united under the banner of one nation again.

I fully support Ukraine by the way. I've been many times and it breaks my heart to see it at war this way, I was just trying to paint a picture of the feelings of different peoples that for us in the UK can be hard to empathise with.

I don’t recognise this version of history.

Ukraine became part of Russia in 1686. At which time Britain had already ruled America for 79 years. We don’t rule America anymore but we aren’t trying to turn the clock back despite sharing a common language and a lot of common culture.

Russia need to get the fuck over it.

In answer to your question, found this video very informative and helpful.

@mathanxiety
Thank you for that brilliant animation of the changing borders over the last few thousand years.

MangyInseam (sorry added the name since not sure how to reply)
No, there are no pro-Russian people in Finland. During the Civil war the reds were supported by Russian government - they lost. So no support since 1918.

We haven't lost land

Until the 1500’s England had bits of northern France as a legacy from the Normans (hence Channel Islands) and some English kings have claimed all of France. And that’s before you get into Ireland and the Empire.

Russia back in the USSR days played an exceptional long game strategy. By repatriating ethnic Russians throughout the region that was then the USSR. This means when they go into any of those countries they can say they are protecting ethnic Russian interests

Also Kiev was like the 3rd city in the USSR, it's important to them

@merrymouse

I don’t know how well comparisons to Ireland stand up, but that example does demonstrate how difficult it is to rule without consent.

One difference with Uk/Ireland is that the partition was negotiated and agreed by the leaders of the time. Many Irish citizens did not agree with it and it caused great division, even recently people knew which side of that debate different families and communities were on.

@YouSayYesISayNo

I agree with likening it with the Ireland/NI/UK scenario.

Suppose the UK decided there was a danger that Ireland would take NI by force (because it used to be part of Ireland). There is no evidence that Ireland is going to do so, but the suggestion has been made.

So the UK decides to invade Ireland. They are going to cleanse the island of Ireland from Irish Nationalists who want a United Ireland. They send in troops to take Dublin and Cork, and spread out to the whole island. They are liberating the unionists (in the north) by neutralising the threat that Ireland might take over NI.

Obviously Ireland would be pretty pissed off. After all, they have no intention of illegally annexing NI. They are an independent country; the UK has no right to invade.

I really hope that in that situation NATO would step in (despite Ireland not being a member) and tell the UK to fuck off

I have actually read this 3 or 4 times now to try to get my head around what you've said. The privileged, naive tone of your comment is astounding. Please, please do not comment on a situation you clearly do not have appropriate level of knowledge on, and in such a confident, "factual" manner too. It's insulting and disrespectful.