Has anyone refused to go back into the office?

[GreenPepperRed]

Just that really. Have a job that can easily be done working from home. Company is now saying compulsory 3 days in the office. Has anyone just not gone in and carried on working from home? How did that turn out?

The majority of my department is insisting they are not going in. Can confirm they are serious because I went in to the office a couple days back and there was probably 10% of the people in.

Intrigued what my company will do. Fire us all?

@TheKeatingFive

I agreed that contract in a different time when they were adamant work could only be done in an office. We've now proven they are wrong.

Well their understanding of the situation and your understanding of the situation may not be entirely the same.

However, they are entitled to maintain/adjust terms as they see fit. You are entitled to agree to them or move on. That's all fine. I'm just not particularly sanguine that there are tonnes of entirely wfh jobs out there waiting to be filled, it all seems to point to hybrid. But I guess we'll see.

The best part is, they've even agreed with us that it works. They've had less sick leave, less stressed employees, happier people. And nothing slowed down, unless it required getting supplies or something that got delayed.

But that's just our departments view, not the whole company. They may not agree which is the problem and then we get forced back.

Thankfully there are remote jobs in what I do. I could get a job for a company in Tokyo if I wanted to, it makes zero difference. But I do like my job, I'd rather keep it, if it still helps my work life balance. My stress levels and health are more important to me than sitting in a chair in a different building.

@Puzzledandpissedoff

Wfh is often fine and dandy, but I’m surprised at some on here thinking it eminently reasonable that looking after their dcs at the same time should be accommodated

It was bound to happen though; with older DCs it can work fine, but with little ones it was only a matter of time until this demand was thrown into the mix, and I'm another who worries about what it may do to womens' work prospects - especially at the lower skills end and/or in small companies

I'm worried that it will put companies off letting people work from home altogether. I've worked at home for many years and I always used childcare for my children when they were younger because I didn't want anybody to think I was taking advantage. People can't argue that they can work just as effectively at home as in the office if they are not attending meetings because they are picking children up or looking after them.

People can argue anything, and do, Belladonna - though it doesn't necessarily mean their argument's credible

I wouldn't automatically expect employers to refuse WFH or hybrid for all, not least because handled well it can work brilliantly. They might approach things differently for proven pisstakers though, because as a PP correctly said managing issues is part of their job despite having many other things to do

Trouble is, pisstakers aren't always amenable to management efforts to stop them being exactly that, which may explain all the threads where what seems rational action attracts "That's illegal!!", "Contact ACAS/your union", "Go off sick", etc., etc.

@PinkSparklyPussyCat

To all those saying how great working from home is, have you got dedicated office space and does your WFH set up meet DSE requirements? I don't have an office and my set up in the dining room would fail a DSE risk assessment and there's no way to change it and I'm know there are people far worse off than me.

I'm very lucky in this respect @PinkSparklyPussyCat . There is only me and DH at home now. I have taken over DS's old bedroom as my office, there is a desk in there and we bought a new office chair at the beginning of the pandemic when first started WFH. I had the opportunity to have a full size monitor but chose to stick with the one on my laptop so I have the extra desk space . I use a full size keyboard and mouse and my laptop is raised on a pile of books so the screen is at the correct level. It is far more comfortable for me than previously where we had to work from different venues and hot desk so not constantly having a comfortable chair etc .

I know that this isn't the case for all my colleagues , at least one has said she works from bed as she has no other room to set herself up. We do now have the opportunity to return to the office if we want to, although there is reduced space as some of our centres have been closed permanently, and therefore if you do want to go in you have to book a desk . I don't know whether other colleagues have taken this option up or not .

Ultimately I think we will return on a hybrid model. Much as I love WFH for the convenience and lack of travel, there is one aspect of our work which we are currently doing virtually which in reality would be better for the client if this took place in person and I think that this will resume face to face once appropriate accommodation is sorted . Despite a previous poster misconstruing my earlier comments on this subject , I am quite happy with this when / if it happens .

I agree with the poster earlier today who said that this topic is very dependent on the type of company you work for, and the job that you do . It will work for some, but not others.

@C8H10N4O2

I'm not saying that I never take breaks to get a cup of tea or whatever but this is piss-taking on a different scale. We are all paid the same amount to do the same job. Yet there are people on this thread who consider that this is justifiable because it's womens' rights innit. It's setting women in the workplace back, and it will mean that WFH is withdrawn from all of us in the long run I suspect

Where is the management in this? Its their responsibility to ensure flexibility around work doesn't mean work not being done.

What are your disciplinary processes around this and why are they not being used if people are consistently failing to deliver despite accommodations being made?

The work is being done - but only because some of us are doing unpaid extra hours to cover others not working their full.

Management is aware but they're worried that there could be an indirect sex discrimination claim. There have been attempts to sort it out, which have been met with threats to get the union involved. The whole thing is a mess and honestly, whilst management are clearly wet lettuces, the entitlement of the parents where I work is awful and I find it very hard to look past it.

Quirky. You say you know your worth and believe you hold the power in your employee/employer relationship but it doesn’t sound to me like particularly good management that you choose to avoid your colleagues/team members asking you ‘constant questions’ by avoiding working with them in the office. It would be far better to ensure they are trained properly to find the answers themselves and to encourage them in doing so by coaching them properly.

That way there’s no need to hide at home in case they disturb your day.

We'll have to agree to disagree!

Working from the office: "I've finished all my work. May as well ask if there's anything else I can help with."

Working from home: "I've finished all my work. May as well walk the dog."

‘I’ve finished all my work’. I don’t think I’ve ever said that! I still get calls into the evening…

@KittenKong

‘I’ve finished all my work’. I don’t think I’ve ever said that! I still get calls into the evening…

I was rarely ever twiddling my thumbs either when I was in an office job as projects/bids were a long process. At best, I could get a few days ahead of my current point on the planner. Usually it was a challenge to get everything done on time (due to many stakeholders contributing) and I often felt like the executive summary etc would've been better with an extra day to write it. So I absolutely could've found ways to use any extra time effectively.

But many posters talk of it being pointless sitting in the office and twiddling their thumbs. This is the point where one could say "well, I'm here now. I may as well find something productive to do." This is much less likely to happen at home IMO as there are many other things that can be done instead - like washing, cleaning, dog walking, etc.

You sound very entitled. Yes they can fire you.

I also don't understand all this "it's a workers market" sentiment that seems to be going around atm. I may have had my head buried in the sand as I've been working flat out all through the pandemic, but previously it was all about ridiculous numbers of people applying for each job and chartered accountants having to work at Tesco to make ends meet.

The work is being done - but only because some of us are doing unpaid extra hours to cover others not working their full

Isn't that just enabling management to kick the can further down the road MabelsApron? If someone's not doing the job they're paid for I'm not sure how it helps for you to do it unpaid

Isn't that just enabling management to kick the can further down the road MabelsApron? If someone's not doing the job they're paid for I'm not sure how it helps for you to do it unpaid.

Well, sometimes it's the difference between submitting a bid on time or missing the deadline and being excluded from the procurement process. I've stepped up and done things other people were supposed to do when I knew it was otherwise going to reflect badly on me as part of the bid team or as the person ultimately managing the process.

@Puzzledandpissedoff

The work is being done - but only because some of us are doing unpaid extra hours to cover others not working their full

Isn't that just enabling management to kick the can further down the road MabelsApron? If someone's not doing the job they're paid for I'm not sure how it helps for you to do it unpaid

It doesn’t help, but I work in provision of services to vulnerable people, so there are real life consequences if everyone just downs tools and leaves on the dot.

I think the pandemic has opened our eyes to the fact that there is a better way to live. There is no need to force people to spend 8, 10, 12+ hours a day out of the home, when we could greatly improve the quality of our lives by having 2-3 days a week to WFH, if feasible. I do think it’s fair for employers to expect us to come in a couple times a week, if one was initially hired to work at the office. But there’s no reason to go back to the old 5+ days a week, commuting into work everyday if it’s not necessary.

I don’t even have children but I can see how the WFH model has taken a tremendous amount of stress off of my co-workers who do have children, and I support them completely. I appreciate having an extra couple days a week to be home with my old dog, and it means the world to her to have me home more, and not too tired and stressed out from a 12 hour day to walk her. There’s so much more to life than just working.

I have hated wfh and am glad to go back into the office. Our company has many problems with people being lazy wfh, so I welcome going back in and some normality.

I’m interested to understand why people feel they’d be so unproductive in an environment with colleagues around them?

I am less productive in the office. At home I choose when to reply to an IM or whether to let a phone call go to voicemail if I have an urgent deadline. In the office you can be easily interrupted. There are benefits of being in the office and I use my office days for those reasons as well as work I cannot do from home.

@PinkSparklyPussyCat

To all those saying how great working from home is, have you got dedicated office space and does your WFH set up meet DSE requirements? I don't have an office and my set up in the dining room would fail a DSE risk assessment and there's no way to change it and I'm know there are people far worse off than me.

This is an interesting point - I work somewhere where we're very much not yet back at the office (and I don't think the company intends us ever to be completely back) and this is being overlooked - loads of my colleagues have terrible set ups that are going to fail a DSE assessment (mine doesn't because I have a back problem, so we spent our own money on a desk etc, but not everyone can do that, or has space to.) When the DSE assessments start being done properly again, aren't these colleagues going to have to go back into the office full time as the company can't allow them to work in unsafe conditions?

@RobynMyEmployer

Working from the office: "I've finished all my work. May as well ask if there's anything else I can help with."

Working from home: "I've finished all my work. May as well walk the dog."

Again, not a WFH issue. This is a poor management issue.

I work in provision of services to vulnerable people, so there are real life consequences if everyone just downs tools and leaves on the dot

I get that completely, and I'm honestly not suggesting anyone should grudge a short spell to finish what they're doing, but hours of unpaid work?

As I said upthread an awful lot of emotional blackmail goes on in the caring professions around vulnerable clients, and it's obviously right that folk care about them within the limits of their jobs
However I stand by my view that, while it might avert an immediate problem, it's not really helping the bigger picture if employees just pick up the slack themselves

This is an interesting point - I work somewhere where we're very much not yet back at the office (and I don't think the company intends us ever to be completely back) and this is being overlooked - loads of my colleagues have terrible set ups that are going to fail a DSE assessment (mine doesn't because I have a back problem, so we spent our own money on a desk etc, but not everyone can do that, or has space to.) When the DSE assessments start being done properly again, aren't these colleagues going to have to go back into the office full time as the company can't allow them to work in unsafe conditions?

I suppose it will be up to the employee. I don't think the employers have to visit people to conduct the assessments. Where I work we do online training and assess ourselves. Noone checks I have done it properly. I doubt that they have to legally so most employers probably won't.

@Puzzledandpissedoff

I work in provision of services to vulnerable people, so there are real life consequences if everyone just downs tools and leaves on the dot

I get that completely, and I'm honestly not suggesting anyone should grudge a short spell to finish what they're doing, but hours of unpaid work?

As I said upthread an awful lot of emotional blackmail goes on in the caring professions around vulnerable clients, and it's obviously right that folk care about them within the limits of their jobs
However I stand by my view that, while it might avert an immediate problem, it's not really helping the bigger picture if employees just pick up the slack themselves

Well, yeah, of course it isn't helping the bigger picture. But if 8 out of a team of 10 are working 6 hours per day rather than their contracted 8, and the team's workload is calculated on the basis of 10 people working full time, then the 2 people who aren't taking the piss are going to be working additional hours to ensure that the services get provided. The 2 of us can stop doing that, but it would mean that services do not get provided. I find that difficult to live with, and it's really easy for those who aren't in the sector to say that we should just stop doing it as it's not helpful.

As I said, management is aware, they're scared shitless of the threatened discrimination claims, and so they're humming and harring. I do blame them for being so wet about it. But my anger is chiefly at the 8 people who are taking the piss, because if they'd just do their bloody jobs then none of us would be in this mess and we could all just enjoy the benefits of WFH. Ultimately they'll probably be lost to all of us.

I'm dipping in and out of this thread and choosing not to respond to the hystericals here who choose to create hypothetical situations that don't exist or misrepresent what people are saying but I've noticed some pretty concerning observations here:

1. I'm sure people picking up their kids ARE making up hours, maybe they work through their lunch and low and behold you probably aren't seeing that if we work from home. I myself regularly will do work at 5.30-6am because that's the time I wake up, have some breakfast and then head to the gym. So I'll quickly do a daily update email as I wait for my cereal to digest. Family friendly working doesn't mean not doing your hours.

2. there are a few childless women on this thread who are being pretty negative about parents working from home and I just want to say how sinister this is. MUMSnet should be a safe space for mums, somewhere they can connect with other parents and not be judged as "setting women's rights back" (LOL!!!) for picking up their children from school.

3. Work evolves through the decades. 50 years ago there were no women in the workplace. The past few decades women have entered but have expected to emulate men, acting as though they don't have children and being penalised if they do. We're now moving to a new model where our technological capability means we can all work from home, so there is more flex in what can and can't be done.

4. look it up but the average worker is only productive for 4 hours a day and your brain can only concentrate about 90 minutes at a time. Very few people work flat out for 8 hours a day and I have worked in banking, in agencies, across football clubs..... pretty much every industry I work in I see MEN (not necessarily women) pretending to work when they're really playing fantasy football on a second tab or sneakily watching the world cup. If you decide the the extra time you have in the day where you'd normally be getting a coffee in the office or twiddling your thumbs is better spent putting on a load of washing or walking the dog....GOOD FOR YOU

5. a lot of posters here have some pretty serious internalised misogyny. Up to you if that's how you want to live your life but stop enforcing your bullshit on other women.

CHEERS 😊