Ukraine - it’s nothing to do with us.

[Greyhop]

I don’t often go on Facebook for exactly this reason. A friend had written this post saying Ukraine is nothing to do with us, and slamming Boris for getting involved. I want to reply, I want to articulate a good reply. A kind reply. Or should I just leave it? AIBU to respond to her offensive post?

Yeh, some fear of a crazy man's retaliation is not ridiculous.

[quote worriedatthemoment]@Hrpuffnstuff1 you haven't answered wether you think what has happened is ok ? [/quote]
I'm explaining why I think the war is happening.
That's not the same as supporting the war. The acts of violence are appalling, when diplomacy fails war is the next action.
And yes I'm in the UK, UK born and bred.

@LiveintheNow

For Whom the Bell Tolls By John Donnee_

No man is an island,
Entire of itself.
Each is a piece of the continent,
A part of the main.
If a clod be washed away by the sea,
Europe is the less.
As well as if a promontory were.
As well as if a manor of thine own
Or of thine friend's were.
Each man's death diminishes me,
For I am involved in mankind.
Therefore, send not to know
For whom the bell tolls,
It tolls for thee.

Ahh gorgeous! Didn't expect to be reading John Donne this morning. How fitting. Please post this OP and tell us her response.

I am Ukrainian. Born and raised in Eastern Ukraine, my family and friend still there, so I feel I am entitled to an opinion on the mess the Ukraine is in.

In 2014 an elected president was removed from power by force and replaced by a pro-American un-elected incumbent. You can argue that it was the people's will. Perhaps. But thousands of people from Eastern Ukraine went to Kiev to protest. They were beaten within an inch of their lives, many did not make it back. Eastern Ukraine refused to accept the new un-elected president. They were called separatists and were bombed by the Ukraine, once, twice, and then it did not stop for 8 years.... My 70 year old father packed his bag and went to fight to protect his country. The Ukraine as he knows it. Children, women, the elderly have been losing lives for 8 years. Not a week has gone by without civilian casualties at the hands of the Ukrainian army. Has anyone interfered? Did you even know about it? My guess is not, because honest media coverage would damage the west's agenda.
I lost friends, classmates to bombs. The total number of casualties is officially 13,000 people. I believe it to be more.
I hate war. I do not support war, be it in Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan or anywhere else.
I cry at the hypocrisy of the world.
Do not say you care if you only care about what impacts you directly. Start caring about casualties of war around the world and not just the ones that suit the west's agenda.

As pp said, it's probably a reaction to fear. I bet if most of us had a choice between getting involved and risking our own lives or not getting involved and not having to worry, we'd choose the latter. Other countries being bombed to shit isn't a new thing. The world is a fucking shitty place.

So you are one of the people from Eastern Ukraine that backs Russia letmesleep123 thank you for posting your view.

Why not go to Russia and let Ukraine have its peace and security and democracy? If you want to have Putin as your leader, move over the border and stay there. Ukraine has a right to be free, as you will know they voted by a massive 90% to become a democracy - you are part of the 10% that didn't I assume from your post.

Perhaps the middle ground is that Eastern Ukraine have representation within central government, but you can not have a Russian puppet government to rule over and control the whole of Ukraine. You know as well as I do that the 2014 elections were rigged by Russia to install, by stealth, their agenda which is why they were removed. It is dishonest of you not to mention that in your post, or at least acknowledge the very well known irregularities of the elections in 2014. Putin was simply trying to overthrow pro democracy by non violent means, which didn't work...hence why we are where we are today.

How you can honestly post ANY kind of support for the bloodshed taking place in your own country is utterly beyond me.

Ukraine was far more prosperous, contented and successful as a democratic nation, which is why they are fighting to the death to preserve it.

There is a compromise to be had probably, but that HAS to be decided by the people of Ukraine and not by a deranged despot.

20Keepyourheadscrewedon I absolutely do not support violence. In fact I am not a fan of Putin at all. My point was that the population of 3mln people in Donbass have been experiencing this same violence for 8 years without anyone batting an eyelid. Did you see much media coverage about the casualties or any calls for the Ukraine to stop mass murder of their own?

Why not leave? Because Ukraine is my country too. A country where we deserve a vote just as much as the Western Ukraine. It does NOT mean we want to be part of Russia.
Regarding the elections being rigged, Yanukovych (pro-Russian) was a president from 2010-2014 until he was removed by force. Poroshenko (pro US) replaced him in 2014 after a snap election where Donbass was not allowed to vote. Does this sound like democracy?

The pro russian puppet government has been replaced by a pro US puppet government.

I guess what I am trying to say is that it's not about a "deranged despot" it's about the US/Russia stand off on the Ukrainian soil. Until both the US and Russia back off, there will be no peace.

Re your " friend " ,I'd either delete her, mute for 30 days or unfollow her. Never argue with idiots, they beat you with experience.

@Keepyourheadscrewedon

So you are one of the people from Eastern Ukraine that backs Russia letmesleep123 thank you for posting your view.

Why not go to Russia and let Ukraine have its peace and security and democracy? If you want to have Putin as your leader, move over the border and stay there. Ukraine has a right to be free, as you will know they voted by a massive 90% to become a democracy - you are part of the 10% that didn't I assume from your post.

Perhaps the middle ground is that Eastern Ukraine have representation within central government, but you can not have a Russian puppet government to rule over and control the whole of Ukraine. You know as well as I do that the 2014 elections were rigged by Russia to install, by stealth, their agenda which is why they were removed. It is dishonest of you not to mention that in your post, or at least acknowledge the very well known irregularities of the elections in 2014. Putin was simply trying to overthrow pro democracy by non violent means, which didn't work...hence why we are where we are today.

How you can honestly post ANY kind of support for the bloodshed taking place in your own country is utterly beyond me.

Ukraine was far more prosperous, contented and successful as a democratic nation, which is why they are fighting to the death to preserve it.

There is a compromise to be had probably, but that HAS to be decided by the people of Ukraine and not by a deranged despot.

So quite clearly it's US foreign policy causing these issues then. The problem is western media and the education system are very inwardly biased. I'd even go as far as saying the general population is ignorant of international relations.

20Hrpuffnstuff1 yes, exactly this.

It is naive to think that a conflict of this magnitude is created by one person. It has been building up for years. The media's coverage of the build up to the escalation (at least 10 years) has been incredibly biased and one sided.

I agree EVERYONE should get the fuck out of Ukraine, and let them decide peacefully and democratically the future. The US are not murdering children in cold blood, so I take some exception to you putting Russia and US in the same category but I would say you are right, this is an issue that can only be resolved in Ukraine.

Some teenagers and young adults have never lived under the iron curtain in Ukraine, they want to be free and independent, their future is one of peace and democracy - surely you can understand why they can not imagine a world under Russia.

Ukraine is prosperous and free, apart from the wasteland you describe in the East, and perhaps that is why Russia wishes to crush them so mercilessly? A golden and shining example of what can happen when people can govern themselves and have self direction. It is a much better, happier way of life for MOST people.

letme There are many countries that have similar divisions as you describe, such as Germany and others and they have representatives from all areas, there is a peaceful solution for Ukraine so everyone is represented. It does not need to be Russian or Western but a unique blend of the two. What can not continue is for Ukraine to live being continuously threatened by its neighbour - Putin has read far too many history books and wishes to resurrect the USSR - these ambitions would need to end.

I think you very much are missing the point of it yourself.

No, I think your are missing the point that the whole “they came for” bullshit comes from a place of privilege. Someone mentioned bullying at work. If you are the office junior watching the CEO bullying your senior colleagues it is fanciful to think that person can, or even should speak out. Not everyone is in a position to stand up for people and that is true of nations too.

@Keepyourheadscrewedon

I agree EVERYONE should get the fuck out of Ukraine, and let them decide peacefully and democratically the future. The US are not murdering children in cold blood, so I take some exception to you putting Russia and US in the same category but I would say you are right, this is an issue that can only be resolved in Ukraine.

Some teenagers and young adults have never lived under the iron curtain in Ukraine, they want to be free and independent, their future is one of peace and democracy - surely you can understand why they can not imagine a world under Russia.

Ukraine is prosperous and free, apart from the wasteland you describe in the East, and perhaps that is why Russia wishes to crush them so mercilessly? A golden and shining example of what can happen when people can govern themselves and have self direction. It is a much better, happier way of life for MOST people.

letme There are many countries that have similar divisions as you describe, such as Germany and others and they have representatives from all areas, there is a peaceful solution for Ukraine so everyone is represented. It does not need to be Russian or Western but a unique blend of the two. What can not continue is for Ukraine to live being continuously threatened by its neighbour - Putin has read far too many history books and wishes to resurrect the USSR - these ambitions would need to end.

The US is murdering children and has been doing so since WW2.

Democratization is a different point.
Personally, after the debacle in Amerika over the past 2 yrs, it's hardly a shining light for democracy nor is it a shining light for ethical and moral behaviors. It's not 1950's Amerika that's been adopted it's the 2022 version.
The UK hasn't quite disappeared into US idiocracy-depravity but it's not far behind.
We don't have a national political identity, a feeling of citizenship, we've moved on to the politics of personal identity. Not all countries have adopted that new narrative. Some still view the nation-state as important. That's the commonality between the people.

In fact, Amerika does laugh at itself-Idiocracy is actually a truism, I'd actually encourage people to watch the film. It's a great tool to argue against democracy.

The problem is western media and the education system are very inwardly biased

Is that why all wealthy Russians that can afford to, send their children to the very best of British schools for an 'inward biased' education? Costing tens of thousands of pounds each year - and upward of a quarter of a million pounds over a child's life time. I am not sure I am the uneducated one.....

20Hrpuffnstuff1

That statement of yours really does not make any sense whatsoever

@Keepyourheadscrewedon

The problem is western media and the education system are very inwardly biased

Is that why all wealthy Russians that can afford to, send their children to the very best of British schools for an 'inward biased' education? Costing tens of thousands of pounds each year - and upward of a quarter of a million pounds over a child's life time. I am not sure I am the uneducated one.....

20Hrpuffnstuff1

That statement of yours really does not make any sense whatsoever

I spy with my little eye, a strawman.

Factitious and fallacious in one sentence, you're very clever.
In addition to ignoring a Ukrainian national and their opinion. How typically western, you know best.

I don't know what a strawman is, is that a Russian thing?

I have received a very good unbiased education here in England, thank you for your compliment, I will let my mother know. My children go to school with lots of Ukrainian, Chinese and Russian children and they are learning how to think critically, question and challenge. It is refreshing to see vigorous and considered thought along with great friendships that blossom amongst children without political agendas.

I agree. Just leave it. You can’t argue with people like this. Some people lack the intelligence and ability to understand why the world needs to get involved and no amount of explaining will help them.

You have to be careful going by the opinion of one person of any nation. One person doesn't speak for an entire nation.

For me the phrase

“The only way for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing” applies here.

Amd this is evil. It’s slaughtering innocent people. It’s destroying life’s, livelihoods, homes, cities, families. All to satisfy one man’s need for power.

@Keepyourheadscrewedon

I don't know what a strawman is, is that a Russian thing?

I have received a very good unbiased education here in England, thank you for your compliment, I will let my mother know. My children go to school with lots of Ukrainian, Chinese and Russian children and they are learning how to think critically, question and challenge. It is refreshing to see vigorous and considered thought along with great friendships that blossom amongst children without political agendas.

Listen to what he is saying.
Now some commentary seems to suggest the west is both a weak power base politically and culturally. Putin is a serious politician who will use military might to achieve his aims.

What are you going to do about it? Is NATO going to go to war with Russia over the Baltics? If NATO does go to war in the Baltics are you happy to see British soldiers die once again on foreign soil?

@Chestofdraws

For me the phrase

“The only way for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing” applies here.

Amd this is evil. It’s slaughtering innocent people. It’s destroying life’s, livelihoods, homes, cities, families. All to satisfy one man’s need for power.

Agreed. People can make as many 'strawman' arguments as they want. I know that the West has hardly covered itself in glory over the years but the responsibility for this invasion lies fully with one person. That person has a history of being behind attacks not just close to home but also in our country and putting people here in danger like in Salisbury. I also resent the idea that if we're not from Ukraine then we aren't educated to what goes on/the history or entitled to a view. It's a terrible situation going on over there - the bravery of the people there is unbelievable and I feel for them but also for the Russians who are willing to put themselves in danger by protesting - as there is no tolerance in Putin's Russia for the right to protest or freedom of press and for Russian soldiers, not all of whom I suspect understand why they are there or want to be there.

Everyone is some mother's son and I'm certain that every single person on here has empathy for that.

Putin is a serious politician who will use military might to achieve his aims. What are you going to do about it? Is NATO going to go to war with Russia over the Baltics? If NATO does go to war in the Baltics are you happy to see British soldiers die once again on foreign soil?

Putin is a crazed, mentally unstable despot, and sadly for Ukraine has massively outplayed his hand.

I would be very happy to go and fight the war myself if it meant we could all live in peace, so yes I would 100% support any forces needed to protect any country in Nato.
You underestimate our commitment to our values of peace and democracy, you clearly do not understand who outraged most of the world feel, and your world view sits in line with Putin's and therefore a huge miscalculation is taking place invading Ukraine.

What do you think Putin wants from this Hrpuffnstuff1?
What do you think his final aim is?
How do you feel about it?

*how

@Keepyourheadscrewedon

Putin is a serious politician who will use military might to achieve his aims. What are you going to do about it? Is NATO going to go to war with Russia over the Baltics? If NATO does go to war in the Baltics are you happy to see British soldiers die once again on foreign soil?

Putin is a crazed, mentally unstable despot, and sadly for Ukraine has massively outplayed his hand.

I would be very happy to go and fight the war myself if it meant we could all live in peace, so yes I would 100% support any forces needed to protect any country in Nato.
You underestimate our commitment to our values of peace and democracy, you clearly do not understand who outraged most of the world feel, and your world view sits in line with Putin's and therefore a huge miscalculation is taking place invading Ukraine.

What do you think Putin wants from this Hrpuffnstuff1?
What do you think his final aim is?
How do you feel about it?

I don't misunderstand anything, and my thinking is not in line with Putin's at all. Putin is most definitely not a crazed despot. He's a serious politician, this is nation-state politics, an exercise in real power. In his speech, one of his demands is to roll Nato back to 1997. Hence what he wants is the old Soviet borders, the Baltic States, Ukraine, Poland, Hungary.

He may force this via an implied nuclear threat.
It wouldn't surprise me if he hasn't been planning this land grab, power surge during covid. The west is weak right now.
Time will tell.

@Hrpuffnstuff1 diplomacy ? No sorry war is not the answer
Killing innocent people and making threats about nuclear weapons os never the answer and never justified