Ukraine - it’s nothing to do with us.

[Greyhop]

I don’t often go on Facebook for exactly this reason. A friend had written this post saying Ukraine is nothing to do with us, and slamming Boris for getting involved. I want to reply, I want to articulate a good reply. A kind reply. Or should I just leave it? AIBU to respond to her offensive post?

@Ionlydomassiveones

“Problem is with this is if we got invaded,, no one would jump in to help us .”

We are part of NATO. ‘An attack on one is an attack on all’. Please don’t post if you don’t know what you’re talking about.

Can I just add . Please don't be so rude . My opinion is as good as anyone else's . I'm living this just the same as you .

@Greyhop

I think her point was that people are suffering here - and we should be focussing on that. I watched Newsnight last night. Putin is probably the wealthiest man in the world, he has immense resources and he is capable of doing this. He is invading Europe. The West can’t just take a back seat, I was looking at the countries bordering Ukraine. I was listening to the Russian links with China. I didn’t feel scared during Covid - I do now.

Our border starts in Europe not the cliffs of Dover

@NobodysGonnaKnow

Yes I do think other countries are rattled but they also no if he wants to push the button he will . We are no use to America in the grand scheme of things

Again not true. It might suit you to believe it but alas, not true.

It doesn't suit me at all , tell me what can we offer America ? Putin will go nuclear at worst . No one can help anyone

Yes Russia which stopped Hitler and the occupied Poland and part of Germany for years afterwards. . With friends like these.

I’ve hated that people were talking about the war in the future - the Ukrainian border has been at war since 2008z thousands of people have died, entire troops and villages have been ambushed and killed.

@NobodysGonnaKnow

However, I have been absolutely shocked that their view generally is that while Putin is in the wrong he has had no choice really due to aggression from The US and NATO

You are shocked that the propaganda machine in Russia has actually worked to convince some of the people that the Russian leader is correct in his actions? That’s literally the purpose if it!

Well yes but some of these people don’t even live in Russia now so naively I was pretty surprised.

OP, I think you probably are unlikely to change her mind, but if you feel like giving her information, here is something I (ironically!) saw posted by a friend on FB today:

For those who ask: “Why does Ukraine matter? “
This is why Ukraine matters.
It is the second largest country by area in Europe by area and has a population
of over 40 million - more than Poland.
Ukraine ranks:
1st in Europe in proven recoverable reserves of uranium ores;
2nd place in Europe and 10th place in the world in terms of titanium ore reserves;
2nd place in the world in terms of explored reserves of manganese ores (2.3 billion tons, or 12% of the world's reserves);
2nd largest iron ore reserves in the world (30 billion tons);
2nd place in Europe in terms of mercury ore reserves;
3rd place in Europe (13th place in the world) in shale gas reserves (22 trillion cubic meters)
4th in the world by the total value of natural resources;
7th place in the world in coal reserves (33.9 billion tons)
Ukraine is an important agricultural country:
1st in Europe in terms of arable land area;
3rd place in the world by the area of black soil (25% of world's volume);
1st place in the world in exports of sunflower and sunflower oil;
2nd place in the world in barley production and 4th place in barley exports;
3rd largest producer and 4th largest exporter of corn in the world;
4th largest producer of potatoes in the world;
5th largest rye producer in the world;
5th place in the world in bee production (75,000 tons);
8th place in the world in wheat exports;
9th place in the world in the production of chicken eggs;
16th place in the world in cheese exports.
Ukraine can meet the food needs of 600 million people.
Ukraine is an important industrialised country:
1st in Europe in ammonia production;
Europe's 2nd’s and the world’s 4th largest natural gas pipeline system;
3rd largest in Europe and 8th largest in the world in terms of installed capacity of nuclear power plants;
3rd place in Europe and 11th in the world in terms of rail network length (21,700 km);
3rd place in the world (after the U.S. and France) in production of locators and locating equipment;
3rd largest iron exporter in the world
4th largest exporter of turbines for nuclear power plants in the world;
4th world's largest manufacturer of rocket launchers;
4th place in the world in clay exports
4th place in the world in titanium exports
8th place in the world in exports of ores and concentrates;
9th place in the world in exports of defence industry products;
10th largest steel producer in the world (32.4 million tons).
Ukraine matters. That is why its independence is important to the rest of the world.
And why some people want it for themselves

The Budapest Memorandum 1994, that’s one reason why we can’t ignore what’s going on in Ukraine

Thebestwaytoscareatory dig deeper into the history of Stalin and gulags. Hitler and Stalin were two sides of the same coin.

I didn't say anything about Stalin, or Putin for that matter. I said that comparing modern day Russia to Nazi German pisses me off when we are happy to ignore our own atrocities and acts of war.

I'd also suggest you dig a bit deeper, the differences between Stalin and Hitler are stark and only someone unfamiliar with the history and structure of those two countries/regimes would think they were the same.

You cannot argue with stupid - just delete them

Stalin and Hitler were ideologically opposed but in behavioural terms were both dictators, responsible for the deaths of millions of people - there's nothing morally between them.

All the useful idiots came out to play BTL on the Guardian comments section. Apparently the publishing the ‘Internal Market Bill’ is in the same ball park as Putin annexing Crimea and supporting a separatist movement in Eastern Ukraine for the last 8 years that has cost the lives of thousands and the shooting down of a civilian airline, before recognising said 'breakaway' regions as independent states and sending in Russian 'peacekeepers' and military equipment, circling half of Ukraine with 150,000 troops while making veiled threats about bringing other ex Soviet states back into the Russian sphere of influence because they both broke international law.

Most of the comments can be summed up as 'but the West'

@Thebestwaytoscareatory

Meant to say I suppose you could chuck out "that's what we said about Hitler" (the first they came for... piece) but there would be no point.

This narrative really pisses me off. The UK and US have spent much of years since WW2 merrily stomping around the world, invading whatever country they wish and laying waste to whoever stands in their way, without much more than a muttering of disapproval from the public.

Yet Russia, who were instrumental to stopping Hitler and suffered the greatest number of casualties in doing so, are the one's tarred with the Hitler tag immediately.

Tell which country acts more like Nazi Germany, the one that obliterates a culture because they want them to think and act like them, slaughters 100s of 1000s of innocent people because of their religon/nationality, and imprisons anyone they don't like in brutal conditions for decades without trial or charge

or

the country that has invaded its neighbour, in an attempt to prevent a hostile organisation getting a foothold on it's border and due to ongoing political tensions?

It is fine to think the Russian invasion is unjust or travesty buy at least have the guts to admit you're chief reason for being outraged is because it's happening to a European country and might directly affect you, and not because you give one iota of shit about the suffering of innocent people at the hands of hostile nation.

Brilliant post

@NobodysGonnaKnow

I haven’t a clue whether it makes our voice louder on any stage but what it does is give us the independence to have a voice and that’s golden.

We're part of Nato, we're not independent.

Removing ourselves from a trading block makes no difference to our independence of military voice.

However, I have been absolutely shocked that their view generally is that while Putin is in the wrong he has had no choice really due to aggression from The US and NATO

You are shocked that the propaganda machine in Russia has actually worked to convince some of the people that the Russian leader is correct in his actions? That’s literally the purpose if it!

Interesting that you think it's propaganda to point out facts.

In 1990 the Soviet Union, as it was collapsing, made a deal with NATO to allow German unification as long as there were written “ironclad guarantees”, that NATO would not expand one inch eastward.

Not long after Germany started reunification talks and what did NATO do? Just the 5 expansions eastward. NATOs refusal to rule out further expansion into Ukraine is also why the Minsk Agreements failed.

I've asked this before but never get a response.

If the roles were reversed and Russia had set up an organisation specifically designed to contain UK or USA aggression and had managed to get Poland, Ukraine, Belarus, Iran, Turkey, etc to sign it at the start and then promised not to expand it anymore. Then decided to ignore that and extended the alliance out to Germany, Netherlands, Denmark and Cuba, and was now actively trying to get Mexico or France to join too, what do you think the UK and US response would have been?

Do you want to get drawn into the equivalent of this on social media?

I wouldn't.

Sounds a reasonable point of view. I’m nearly always anti-war and I am in this case. But the trouble with the Western press is they virtually all, and are virtually always, pro foreign “interventionism”. except of course in occasional cases when the interventionism is being conducted by one of a handful of counties which is perceived as standing against Western interests. Then they are all suddenly as dyed in the wool pacifists. Us in the West are, thanks to our biased media, mostly shielded from the ridiculous hypocrisy of this position, but of course the rest of the world laughs at our cultural and political hypocrisy.

I don’t think I’d response would be tanks and missiles and threatening other countries with (we assume) nuclear hypersonic missiles. I suspect we would have gone down the route of diplomacy as our country isn’t run by a despot.

@Thebestwaytoscareatory

Meant to say I suppose you could chuck out "that's what we said about Hitler" (the first they came for... piece) but there would be no point.

This narrative really pisses me off. The UK and US have spent much of years since WW2 merrily stomping around the world, invading whatever country they wish and laying waste to whoever stands in their way, without much more than a muttering of disapproval from the public.

Yet Russia, who were instrumental to stopping Hitler and suffered the greatest number of casualties in doing so, are the one's tarred with the Hitler tag immediately.

Tell which country acts more like Nazi Germany, the one that obliterates a culture because they want them to think and act like them, slaughters 100s of 1000s of innocent people because of their religon/nationality, and imprisons anyone they don't like in brutal conditions for decades without trial or charge

or

the country that has invaded its neighbour, in an attempt to prevent a hostile organisation getting a foothold on it's border and due to ongoing political tensions?

It is fine to think the Russian invasion is unjust or travesty buy at least have the guts to admit you're chief reason for being outraged is because it's happening to a European country and might directly affect you, and not because you give one iota of shit about the suffering of innocent people at the hands of hostile nation.

Baffling interpretation of Russia's part in WW2, Stalin? Gulags? Secret Police?

Which culture have we obliterated since WW2 because it is different from our own and not because it is oppressive? Obliterate means to entirely wipe out - who have we entirely wiped out? Who has USA entirely wiped out?

Did you hear the Ukranian woman sobbing in fear on the radio moments ago? She doesn't seem to know Russia is just invading to prevent hostile organisations gettinga foothold in its border, rather than because Putin feels threatened by Ukraine's democratic status and European leanings?

Stalin and Hitler were ideologically opposed but in behavioural terms were both dictators, responsible for the deaths of millions of people - there's nothing morally between them.

In behavioural terms they were chalk and cheese. Stalin's style borrowed heavily from Tsarist government he replaced, creating a secular copy of the religious devotion the Tsars inspired, he was god and infected all Russian lives. His regime was all about overthrowing the old power structure and anyone who had held power before the revolution was a seen as a part of the old system and not safe. That extended out to the individual civilians and so it became virtually anyone was a potential traitor.

Hitler on the other hand was fundamentally about preserving old power structures. Germany was highly educated and industrialised nation before Hitler got into power and he worked to win over the rich and powerful instead of overthrowing them. Hitler ruled by love more than fear promising the average German a better life as long as they supported him and towed the Nazi kine.

The result was that average German, as long as they were a good little German who held the right views, did not fear Hitler in the same way the average Russian, who could be sent to death even if they were the perfect communist,feared Stalin.

If you're purely going on terms of being responsible for deaths then again there's nothing morally between Hitler, Stalin, Bush, Blair, etc, etc.

I'm not sure it's fair to say that Germans didn't fear Hitler. I don't suppose having every aspect of your life monitored and controlled resulted in feeling very safe. You are ignoring that the Jews in Germany were also Germans. And the Communists and other political opponents etc.
That's not to say that he wasn't loved by some, especially when he was promising to solve all of Germany's problems.
But the end result was persecution and murder of their own populations in both regimes.

Which culture have we obliterated since WW2 because it is different from our own and not because it is oppressive? Obliterate means to entirely wipe out - who have we entirely wiped out? Who has USA entirely wiped out?

Iraq, Afghanistan, Iran, Cambodia, Lydia, Chile, Ethiopia, Haiti, Syria, to name a few.

You might argue that none of those have been obliterated as to your understanding of the word, and while those countries still stand, the way of life before western intervention is long gone and many are still dealing with the fallout.

Watch once upon a time in Iraq to see the devastation caused by our dose of freedom and democracy.

I'm no fan of Bush or Blair but I wouldn't put them in the same category. As much as I opposed the war in Iraq it isn't quite the same as deliberately wiping out specific sections of society

I'm not sure it's fair to say that Germans didn't fear Hitler. I don't suppose having every aspect of your life monitored and controlled resulted in feeling very safe. You are ignoring that the Jews in Germany were also Germans. And the Communists and other political opponents etc.
That's not to say that he wasn't loved by some, especially when he was promising to solve all of Germany's problems.
But the end result was persecution and murder of their own populations in both regimes.

I didn't say Germans didn't fear Hitler. I said the average German, who towed the party line, didn't fear Hitler in the same way as the average Russian feared Stalin. If you were a good little Nazi you were more or less safe from Hitler. No one was safe from Stalin, as in his eyes anyone and everyone could be a traitor.

I'm no fan of Bush or Blair but I wouldn't put them in the same category. As much as I opposed the war in Iraq it isn't quite the same as deliberately wiping out specific sections of society

But you said in an early post that despite different ideologies the end result was the deaths of millions and that made Stalin and Hitler morally the same. You're now saying that actually the ideologies behind the deaths DO matter and morally Bush and Blair are better.

So in your opinion Hitler ordering the destruction of Jewish people, or Stalin overseeing the purging 'traitors' worse than Bush and Blair ordering the invasion of Iraq or Afghanistan in the pursuit of "freedom and democracy" or the "war on terror"?

This narrative really pisses me off. The UK and US have spent much of years since WW2 merrily stomping around the world, invading whatever country they wish and laying waste to whoever stands in their way, without much more than a muttering of disapproval from the public.

It’s almost as if post WW2 the Soviet union did not brutally occupy and suppress most of Eastern Europe, invade Afghanistan and militarily and financially support ideological proxy wars across globe.

I would say there was overwhelming disapproval from the public when the UK got involved in Iraq, a million people marching in protest qualifies as more then a ‘muttering of disapproval’. There is overwhelming disapproval of the UK supplying arms to Saudi Arabia and there use in Yeman.

Yet Russia, who were instrumental to stopping Hitler and suffered the greatest number of casualties in doing so, are the one's tarred with the Hitler tag immediately.

A somewhat selective history there, you seem to have forgotten the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact, a non-aggression pact between Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union that enabled those two powers to partition Poland between themselves and triggered the whole start of WW2 and millions of deaths in the process. I am grateful that Nazi Germany got bogged down on the Eastern front and was not able to swing the full might of its Wehrmacht against the western allies as the outcome of the war could have been very different. But as far as I am concerned the Soviets were far from an innocent party in WW2 and were the lesser of two evils. Their casualties were enormous because Stalin ignored his intelligence services of a planned German invasion and refused to put the Armed forces on alert. Throw into the mix the purging of the officer classes prior to the war, outdated equipment and tactics that tended to be expensive in terms of human life and the brutal treatment by the Nazi war machine, the very same war machine they were happy to climb into bed with in 1939.

I said that despite having different ideologies both Hitler and Stalin behaved in similar ways in that they both deliberately persecuted and murdered people because they didn't fit their personal 'ideal'. This makes them a different sort of person to a leader whose political actions result in loss of life.
It's ridiculous to imply they are similar - much as I disliked Blair I don't recall him systematically removing peoples human rights and putting people into death camps.