Ukraine - it’s nothing to do with us.

[Greyhop]

I don’t often go on Facebook for exactly this reason. A friend had written this post saying Ukraine is nothing to do with us, and slamming Boris for getting involved. I want to reply, I want to articulate a good reply. A kind reply. Or should I just leave it? AIBU to respond to her offensive post?

First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist.
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

First they came for…

Ahh, that old chestnut.

“They” have been “coming for” a whole load of different groups/countries/races/religions for a very long time. Were you so invested in helping them all?

@BoredZelda

First they came for…

Ahh, that old chestnut.

“They” have been “coming for” a whole load of different groups/countries/races/religions for a very long time. Were you so invested in helping them all?

That's a pettily literal and somewhat cynical snotty response IMO.

It is a principle. Do nations stand by and watch other countries be brutally invaded? Alliances of nations?

Do we stand aside and watch someone being bullied at work, or so we say something?

That's what it is about.

Why bother with Facebook?

BoredZelda
First they came for…

Ahh, that old chestnut.

“They” have been “coming for” a whole load of different groups/countries/races/religions for a very long time. Were you so invested in helping them all?

Yes - I think everybody should do what they can and within their ability to help them all.
What does your cynical self suggest? That we turn our backs on everybody and expect everybody to turn their backs on us?
May I never live in your world.

My 12 year old had this opinion but I mean, he’s 12 so I told him why he was incorrect and left it at that. He sort of thought we should let Putin do what he wants because he doesn’t want to die which is understandable.

Still ignoring the fact, the west agreed not to expand NATO.

They did no such thing, even Mikhail Gorbachev has confirmed this. It's a pretext invented by Putin to justify his 'security concerns' and anti NATO narrative. What the Germans, Americans, British and French did agree to in 1990 was that there would be no deployment of non-German NATO forces on the territory of the former GDR. The agreement on not deploying foreign troops on the territory of the former GDR was incorporated in Article 5 of the Treaty on the Final Settlement with Respect to Germany, which was signed on September 12, 1990 by the foreign ministers of the two Germanys, the United States, Soviet Union, Britain and France.

And not everyone wishes a for a western democratic status nor do they wish for Western ethics.

Well in the context of most of Eastern Europe they most certainly did which is why they rushed for EU membership or joined NATO when they could while Russia was in a weakened less belligerent state. Generally speaking the only people who do not want democratic status or western values are usually dictators and religious fundamentalists. It would seem that given the sheer volume of numbers risking all they own and their lives by trying to get into the EU or the US suggests that crazy things like democracy, human rights, rule of law, free press etc are quite desirable.

I know I'm married to a Baltic woman.

And she speaks for everyone?

Anybody changed their Facebook page to a Yemen flag yet

It's true you can't argue with stupid...but you should still try in circumstances like these. Someone out there may actually take her seriously - it's important to have articulate dissenting voices.

@SartresSoul

My 12 year old had this opinion but I mean, he’s 12 so I told him why he was incorrect and left it at that. He sort of thought we should let Putin do what he wants because he doesn’t want to die which is understandable.

It's kind of your job to educate him...

See, I disagree with not saying anything. FB is a platform, not a private one to one conversation.

If I were in a room hearing someone spout their ignorance, bias, bigotry etc. Damn right I would speak up.

There is this daft idea that being above FB actually means something.

I would call the ignorant twat out. You can be sure that many will be reading - much like anyone in a room would be listening.

I think the British are too quick to make it someone else's issue and turn away. I saw it over Brexit. I was speaking out (as a dual national who doesn't have same levels of loss and impact) Friends' would remain silent or say they didn't want to 'get involved'.

I don't know if it is apathy but speaking out on FB when someone is posting utter shit is not to be derided or treated as stupid. It is still a very popular platform that many use - even if they don't ever post - and read.

@DillonPanthersTexas

Still ignoring the fact, the west agreed not to expand NATO.

They did no such thing, even Mikhail Gorbachev has confirmed this. It's a pretext invented by Putin to justify his 'security concerns' and anti NATO narrative. What the Germans, Americans, British and French did agree to in 1990 was that there would be no deployment of non-German NATO forces on the territory of the former GDR. The agreement on not deploying foreign troops on the territory of the former GDR was incorporated in Article 5 of the Treaty on the Final Settlement with Respect to Germany, which was signed on September 12, 1990 by the foreign ministers of the two Germanys, the United States, Soviet Union, Britain and France.

And not everyone wishes a for a western democratic status nor do they wish for Western ethics.

Well in the context of most of Eastern Europe they most certainly did which is why they rushed for EU membership or joined NATO when they could while Russia was in a weakened less belligerent state. Generally speaking the only people who do not want democratic status or western values are usually dictators and religious fundamentalists. It would seem that given the sheer volume of numbers risking all they own and their lives by trying to get into the EU or the US suggests that crazy things like democracy, human rights, rule of law, free press etc are quite desirable.

I know I'm married to a Baltic woman.

And she speaks for everyone?

US diplomatic sources from the time corroborate this information, it's well documented. Clinton began the expansion of NATO. The US decided against a strategic partnership-Now Ukraine has become the latest tug of war in the expansion of the US homogeneity.

I think you need to read up-on foreign affairs, there's plenty of academic commentary and commentary from the diplomats who worked on the dissolution of the soviet union and the Warsaw pact.
As for the people, they love the wealth, what they do not like are the values and ethics of the west. However, not all groups within the former USSR agree with the democratization of their society either.
The US wants uni-polarity.

Jack Matlock-Bradley-Pozner-Mearsheimer-Zoellick-Cohen et al-Feb-9-1990.
It's an international relations blunder, broken trust.

Block her

Why be friends with stupid.

"Putin has warned the west, keep out or you will be nuked."

Have you ever heard of MAD, @Hrpuffnstuff1? As Frank Gardner said this week, it still applies.

@CPL593H

"Putin has warned the west, keep out or you will be nuked."

Have you ever heard of MAD, @Hrpuffnstuff1? As Frank Gardner said this week, it still applies.

No never heard of it.🤔🤣

Putin threatened the west, not me.
I cannot believe that people has such narrow opinions of international political relationship's.
West is the goody.
Russia/China are the baddies.

Hopefully they'll heed China's diplomatic advice and lay down the weapons.
And Biden, seriously, the single worst president in US history.

They cam for ....... and I said nothing

Really misses the point that in hitler Germany those who said anything put their whole family at servere risk. Sometimes the best thing an individual can do is nothing. It doeant mean they arent empathic of others

That's a pettily literal and somewhat cynical snotty response IMO.

It’s pretty petty to piously trot out some well worn trope rather than making a case for any specific scenario.

It is a principle. Do nations stand by and watch other countries be brutally invaded? Alliances of nations?

Yes. Yes they do. They do all the time.

Do we stand aside and watch someone being bullied at work, or so we say something?

Again, people do, all the time. Mostly, people will only get involved if there is no retribution for themselves. Or if they have the power to intervene. Or it there is something in it for them.

Yes - I think everybody should do what they can and within their ability to help them all.

So why, as a nation, don’t we?

What does your cynical self suggest? That we turn our backs on everybody and expect everybody to turn their backs on us?

We’ve done that, to the list of nations and people I mentioned earlier. Why didn’t we help them?

I’m far from cynical, I’m a realist. There may well be good reasons for intervening. And the governments of the countries who are considering doing so should be honest about it. It isn’t ever about what is best for the nation under attack, it is political, and it is economic and it is also conveniently profitable for a whole lot of people with vested interests. I’d never expect them to admit to the latter, but they could be honest about the first two reasons and most would understand that.

May I never live in your world.

I probably wouldn't say anything (who needs the extra stress right now) but I'd completely lose interest in maintaining any friendship. I'd just see them as an ignorant, useless, selfish arsehole, and that'd be the end of that.

@Hrpuffnstuff1 you haven't answered wether you think what has happened is ok ?

@Hrpuffnstuff1 do you not live in the west then ?

Fuck the kind reply.
If we were being invaded, would she want the rest of the world to stay silent? No, she wouldn't.
Boris has made the right moral call. Silence is not an option.

@Covidworries

They cam for ....... and I said nothing

Really misses the point that in hitler Germany those who said anything put their whole family at servere risk. Sometimes the best thing an individual can do is nothing. It doeant mean they arent empathic of others

I think you very much are missing the point of it yourself.

She's probably scared that getting involved would put us at risk. It's exactly what went through my head when when I heard.

I'm scared that if we get involved we might get bombed. I don't want to just leave the innocent people to it with no help either, I also don't want my family and friends to be at risk. I don't want war in my children's country.

Obviously we're going to be involved. I just hope that every strong nation gets involved so putin doesn't retaliate on us

@UserWithNoUserName
I dont think i am tbh. I get it but being able to speak out about any topic is a privalage. Its easy to condemn anything if you are safe and secure. People post the flags on the facebook profile is an easy act but this doesnt do any real good in terms of providing food, medicine, shelter.
How many people in the uk would open their home and share it willingly with a family tryong to escape a war zone or dangerous situation. Its easy to put a (i stand with x) on facebook. Its totally different to put yourself in real harms way.

I admire our forces that do this, I feel unbelievable sadness for those suffering right now but I as an individual can do very little that will actually make any real difference

@Screwcorona

She's probably scared that getting involved would put us at risk. It's exactly what went through my head when when I heard.

I'm scared that if we get involved we might get bombed. I don't want to just leave the innocent people to it with no help either, I also don't want my family and friends to be at risk. I don't want war in my children's country.

Obviously we're going to be involved. I just hope that every strong nation gets involved so putin doesn't retaliate on us

The USA and other NATO countries have our backs, which should be a bit reassuring. hopefully Russia isn't insane enough to provoke the USA in particular into a full, boots on the ground war.