Ukraine - it’s nothing to do with us.

[Greyhop]

I don’t often go on Facebook for exactly this reason. A friend had written this post saying Ukraine is nothing to do with us, and slamming Boris for getting involved. I want to reply, I want to articulate a good reply. A kind reply. Or should I just leave it? AIBU to respond to her offensive post?

She's a shallow hal. Just I friend her. End of.

The word you're looking for is "totalitarian". Once a regime turns totalitarian it doesn't much matter to the average member of the populace whether it's right-wing or left-wing totalitarianism. George Orwell understood this and so did Hannah Arendt.

@Aderyn21

I said that despite having different ideologies both Hitler and Stalin behaved in similar ways in that they both deliberately persecuted and murdered people because they didn't fit their personal 'ideal'. This makes them a different sort of person to a leader whose political actions result in loss of life. It's ridiculous to imply they are similar - much as I disliked Blair I don't recall him systematically removing peoples human rights and putting people into death camps.

He didnt give a shit about the semitic people of the middle east tho, it was just all of them that live there he didnt give a stuff about rather then just one group in particular, no one gives a stuff about the people of the middle east (or Africa for that matter).

and they did set up horrible places that tortured people and places like Guantánamo bay

@HotPenguin

Well there's a conflict in Mali at the moment and noone's suggesting we get involved there. So it isn't just about helping others, it's about self interest - we care more about Ukraine because it's in Europe and it's impacting on us. So while I don't agree with her I also don't think she's necessarily being unfeeling or immoral because there are lots of conflicts around the world that we take no part in.

You make a good point but this particular world event concerns Russia who are fucking big and scary and could cause damage to all our lives if they were crazy enough (UK, Europe, possibly most of the world). I think that's why people are stopping and taking notice more than usual.

@gingerhills you’re kidding me right?

And before you come at me with the : but we were rescuing women and girls in Afghanistan and bringing democracy to them……..I’d suggest you re-read the facts and look up opium production by western countries in Afghanistan!!!

The US and NATO have poked the bear far too many times. What did anyone actually expect?! Other than an invasion. Beggars belief. Putin is a nasty piece of work but so are many others who claim to be saviours! The double standards and hypocrisy is astounding.

I said that despite having different ideologies both Hitler and Stalin behaved in similar ways in that they both deliberately persecuted and murdered people because they didn't fit their personal 'ideal'. This makes them a different sort of person to a leader whose political actions result in loss of life.

You said that they their ideologies were irrelevant and that they were morally the same because their actions led the deaths of innocent people. If that is your view then it doesn't matter why Blair or Bush ordered the invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan, the fact that it directly led the deaths of innocent people makes them morally the same as Hitler or Stalin.

If you're now saying that the ideologies and behaviors of the leaders and the underlying reasons behind the deaths DO impact on whether they are justified or not that's fine, but I'm going to ask why.

Why, in your mind, is Hitler ordering the destruction of the Jewish people different or worse to Bush and Blair ordering the destruction of Islamic Fundamentalists?

Why was Hitler trying to enforce Nazi ideologies on Europe at the expense of millions of lives worse than the US and UK trying to enforce Western ideologies on the Middle East at the expense of millions of lives?

It's ridiculous to imply they are similar - much as I disliked Blair I don't recall him systematically removing peoples human rights and putting people into death camps.

You don't remember the coalition systematically abducting, torturing, and imprisoning (without trial or charge) anyone they suspected of being a terrorist regardless of whether that suspicion was justifier or not? You don't remember the same coalition using drones and other means to summarily execute people they deemed a threat?

Do you genuinely not remember those types of incident or are you just downplaying?

But she is allowed an opinion why do people always have to think others must think like they do
Or can only be friends with people who think exactly alike
Maybe she doesn't understand the situation fully , maybe she is worried if we get too involved it will cause ww3 , she could have many reasons but you just scroll past or reply with your differing reasons but don't expect all to agree with you

@Aderyn21 exactly these same people shouting do this do that do not have all the info and intelligence and will be the same ones saying why does Britain think its so superior etc etc about other things yet think we alone can make a huge impact on this
Also i keep reading in here about us not taking refugees , has that actually been said anywhere ?

@Thebestwaytoscareatory

Which culture have we obliterated since WW2 because it is different from our own and not because it is oppressive? Obliterate means to entirely wipe out - who have we entirely wiped out? Who has USA entirely wiped out?

Iraq, Afghanistan, Iran, Cambodia, Lydia, Chile, Ethiopia, Haiti, Syria, to name a few.

You might argue that none of those have been obliterated as to your understanding of the word, and while those countries still stand, the way of life before western intervention is long gone and many are still dealing with the fallout.

Watch once upon a time in Iraq to see the devastation caused by our dose of freedom and democracy.

Right, so Papa Doc, Pinochet, Isis et al were just making daisy chains and handing out free sandwiches to all until we came along and ruined everything?

I'm absolutely not saying we are blameless but it's a bit simplistic to say we are the cause of the destruction of all these nations. We are instrumental in their ruin and instability but we have not single-handedly obliterated peaceful, well-functioning nations in any of these cases.

@Thebestwaytoscareatory

However, I have been absolutely shocked that their view generally is that while Putin is in the wrong he has had no choice really due to aggression from The US and NATO

You are shocked that the propaganda machine in Russia has actually worked to convince some of the people that the Russian leader is correct in his actions? That’s literally the purpose if it!

Interesting that you think it's propaganda to point out facts.

In 1990 the Soviet Union, as it was collapsing, made a deal with NATO to allow German unification as long as there were written “ironclad guarantees”, that NATO would not expand one inch eastward.

Not long after Germany started reunification talks and what did NATO do? Just the 5 expansions eastward. NATOs refusal to rule out further expansion into Ukraine is also why the Minsk Agreements failed.

I've asked this before but never get a response.

If the roles were reversed and Russia had set up an organisation specifically designed to contain UK or USA aggression and had managed to get Poland, Ukraine, Belarus, Iran, Turkey, etc to sign it at the start and then promised not to expand it anymore. Then decided to ignore that and extended the alliance out to Germany, Netherlands, Denmark and Cuba, and was now actively trying to get Mexico or France to join too, what do you think the UK and US response would have been?

Agreed, what people don't understand or know is that Putin also asked to join NATO, he was rebuffed, Nato then continued to expand.

This war is an entirely western problem, only this time it's not a proxy war. The west has for too long stuck its diplomatic beak into Russian business. Putin has warned the west, keep out or you will be nuked.

'First they came for the Communists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Communist
Then they came for the Socialists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Socialist
Then they came for the trade unionists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a trade unionist
Then they came for the Jews
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Jew
Then they came for me
And there was no one left
To speak out for me'
Martin Niemoller

@gingerhills Pinochet is a really bad example for you to use, given that he came to power in a US-backed military coup as part of Operation Condor. The USA had nothing to do with his removal from power, but they were involved in his appointment.

*Right, so Papa Doc, Pinochet, Isis et al were just making daisy chains and handing out free sandwiches to all until we came along and ruined everything? hmm

I'm absolutely not saying we are blameless but it's a bit simplistic to say we are the cause of the destruction of all these nations. We are instrumental in their ruin and instability but we have not single-handedly obliterated peaceful, well-functioning nations in any of these cases.*

but Pinochet was our friend, the first Neo Lib in south America, Thatcher loved him and protected him from prosecution for crimes against humanity.

I've just replied to a friend on WhatsApp. Now I am in a rage, and staying away from my phone because otherwise I will say something unforgivable to my clueless 'friend'. I spoke up because they say that the silence of good people is as bad as the deeds of evil people.Not so sure now

This is why I don't have Facebook. Unhelpful, I know.

A man on my local Facebook group has just said that the youngsters fleeing Ukraine are cowards and they should be staying and fighting.

There are tossers everywhere.

This war is an entirely western problem, only this time it's not a proxy war.

Except it will become exactly that, taking over a country is easy, subsequently controlling it is quite another as the US learned from Iraq and Afghanistan. The Ukraine is huge and Russia simply does not have the manpower or finance to fight a prolonged insurgency. NATO might not be putting boots on the ground but they will happily supply weapons, intelligence and training to Ukrainian troops/resistance much in the same way Iran did with Iraqi insurgents and Russia did with Assad supporting proxy groups in Syria. It seems that Putin's narrative back home of Ukrainians welcoming Russian troops onto their streets is going to be difficult to sell when hundreds of dead Russian conscripts are being sent home each month.

The west has for too long stuck its diplomatic beak into Russian business.

If you mean 'The West' allowed recently independent states that had suffered 40 odd years of occupation and control from Moscow to decide their own direction by tilting towards the EU/US and the protection of NATO rather than allow Putin's brutal autocratic rule and his mafia state to bleed them dry then I imagine they were quite glad that the 'diplomatic beak' of the west got involved.

Putin has warned the west, keep out or you will be nuked.

The perfectly reasonable threats of a reasonable man.

Thebestwaytoscareatory I said their ideologies were opposed not irrelevant and that their behaviour of systematically depriving innocent people of human rights and murdering people based on their ethnicity made them morally the same.
I'm not going to get into defending Blair since I think he was wrong to invade Iraq. But for a PM to fight people who would deny any opposition their lives and liberties and who threaten the physical safety of UK citizens is not at all comparable to rounding up innocent Jewish families and political opponents and systematically exterminating them.

@girlmom21

A man on my local Facebook group has just said that the youngsters fleeing Ukraine are cowards and they should be staying and fighting.

There are tossers everywhere.

Keyboard warriors.

There's no point. She's just said she doesn't care about people suffering in other countries. I'm not sure there's anything you can say to someone who feels that way

Maybe she should have worded it differently. Like, why are we getting involved in Ukraine when we didn’t in Syria. Or Chad or Colombia or Myanmar or Yemen or…….

Maybe she should have asked why we are getting involved in Ukraine but doing nothing to help the Uyghurs in China.

I mean, if it’s about people suffering, we should be in there too, right?

I confess to not reading all but I used to live in Salisbury.
Russians attacked and nearly killed several people who had no connection to Russia at all. There was one death.

@Hrpuffnstuff1 will be nuked ?? If that happens the world is over you know , sounds like something rationale to say ?

@DillonPanthersTexas

This war is an entirely western problem, only this time it's not a proxy war.

Except it will become exactly that, taking over a country is easy, subsequently controlling it is quite another as the US learned from Iraq and Afghanistan. The Ukraine is huge and Russia simply does not have the manpower or finance to fight a prolonged insurgency. NATO might not be putting boots on the ground but they will happily supply weapons, intelligence and training to Ukrainian troops/resistance much in the same way Iran did with Iraqi insurgents and Russia did with Assad supporting proxy groups in Syria. It seems that Putin's narrative back home of Ukrainians welcoming Russian troops onto their streets is going to be difficult to sell when hundreds of dead Russian conscripts are being sent home each month.

The west has for too long stuck its diplomatic beak into Russian business.

If you mean 'The West' allowed recently independent states that had suffered 40 odd years of occupation and control from Moscow to decide their own direction by tilting towards the EU/US and the protection of NATO rather than allow Putin's brutal autocratic rule and his mafia state to bleed them dry then I imagine they were quite glad that the 'diplomatic beak' of the west got involved.

Putin has warned the west, keep out or you will be nuked.

The perfectly reasonable threats of a reasonable man.

Still ignoring the fact, the west agreed not to expand NATO. And not everyone wishes a for a western democratic status nor do they wish for Western ethics. I know I'm married to a Baltic woman.

@Hrpuffnstuff1 are you justifying it as ok whats happened then

@Hrpuffnstuff1 also your married to one person not a whole nation of course not everyone wants the same
Im not sure killing innocent people is they way to get what you want though are you ?