Is the UK in danger from Russia?

[hereforalongtimenotagoodtime]

Keep receiving conflicting information. I am sick to my stomach and quite simply hate the unknown. So a simple question - is it likely that the UK will be in danger from Russia? And if so what does that look like? Cyber attacks, bombs being dropped?

@Monday55

One-on-one war against Russia and we will definitely lose, we literally like a mosquito bite compared to what they can do. The only countries that can win against Russia one-on- one are USA & China and there's absolutely no way China will ever fight on the same side as USA.

A lot of UK citizens sleep easy thinking we can defend ourselves but we are not even in the top 5 strongest armies and we barely make it in the top ten.

We have the fifth largest defence budget in the world alongside pretty solid alliances with the US, Canada, Aus and half of Europe. We would never be fighting Russia alone.

@Libraryghost

You have to accept the unknown to a large extent I'm afraid. The first thing that will happen is the cost of living will go up. Rising gas and oil prices inevitably means higher commodity prices. As for what actions Russia will take, who knows? No point worrying about it really. Easier said then done I know but it's a fluid situation. It all depends on if it carries on escalating and if he breaches NATO lands. It's worth remembering we have been here many times. Read up on the Cuban missile crisis, many people though a nuclear war would kick off then. We are still here.

We could easily not have been, though. I'm not old enough to remember the Cuban missile crisis personally, but I've read a fair bit about it and I do remember the last couple of decades of the Cold War, notably how close to the red button we were in the 80s on several occasions. It genuinely could have degenerated into nuclear conflict. Not trying to panic anyone (I'm neither a political commentator nor in possession of every single piece of info about what's happening atm) but I don't think it's all that surprising that some people are worried about the nuclear possibility either. I am myself.

On the point of consequences, I just found this 10 min video which highlights a point I hadn't even thought about: food production.

When I thought about what a war with Russia would mean I automatically jumped to the consequences on energy prices etc and didn't even think about this point.

What harm would a cyber attack really do though? A day or two of systems down..it would just be an annoyance.

OK now that I've stopped laughing at this..

It's a really really big deal. Let's just take what happened to sepa in 2020 as an example. To actually resolve that it took months, and replacing all of their computers, servers, everything. The same thing has happened to numerous other smaller companies in 2021.

Now imagine that across the whole of the UK banking sector. That's a lot of banks. A lot of computers, a lot of servers. There actually isn't enough replacements in the UK to cover that. So you can't access your money because its all compromised and switched off.

Now moving on to water companies. If they managed to get in and get into the secure areas that control things like chlorine levels in the water, they could adjust that. Or just switch it off altogether. Waste management, same thing.

They could target the NHS, which has happened before. Machines like life support could be targeted. On a more basic level, they could just lift all of your data and use it.

Targeting all of that, plus more, would take years to resolve. Years. There are plans in place to resolve it if it happens to one, maybe two. But to actually fix all of that quickly? There aren't enough people who know what to do employed, thanks to cut backs, and there isn't enough spare infrastructure to replace the compromised machines. The ones controlling the water levels etc tend to be very very old machines that are no longer even made. So how do those get replaced to actually work with the systems? It's a complete nightmare. You couldn't trust anything if it happened.

It's a very big deal and not just a couple of days of annoyance. It's a life changer, for years. To the point that I'd say getting money out now is pointless, if that actually happens, society is already over. Same as if we are hit with nuclear weapons. Its complete devastation.

One man causing all this chaos, fear and loss of life. The man should be physically restrained/ disobeyed.

Western countries off cyber attacks from Russia and China every day even before Ukraine. It is nothing new for countries to successfully fend off those attacks.

@AllOfUsAreDead

What harm would a cyber attack really do though? A day or two of systems down..it would just be an annoyance.

OK now that I've stopped laughing at this..

It's a really really big deal. Let's just take what happened to sepa in 2020 as an example. To actually resolve that it took months, and replacing all of their computers, servers, everything. The same thing has happened to numerous other smaller companies in 2021.

Now imagine that across the whole of the UK banking sector. That's a lot of banks. A lot of computers, a lot of servers. There actually isn't enough replacements in the UK to cover that. So you can't access your money because its all compromised and switched off.

Now moving on to water companies. If they managed to get in and get into the secure areas that control things like chlorine levels in the water, they could adjust that. Or just switch it off altogether. Waste management, same thing.

They could target the NHS, which has happened before. Machines like life support could be targeted. On a more basic level, they could just lift all of your data and use it.

Targeting all of that, plus more, would take years to resolve. Years. There are plans in place to resolve it if it happens to one, maybe two. But to actually fix all of that quickly? There aren't enough people who know what to do employed, thanks to cut backs, and there isn't enough spare infrastructure to replace the compromised machines. The ones controlling the water levels etc tend to be very very old machines that are no longer even made. So how do those get replaced to actually work with the systems? It's a complete nightmare. You couldn't trust anything if it happened.

It's a very big deal and not just a couple of days of annoyance. It's a life changer, for years. To the point that I'd say getting money out now is pointless, if that actually happens, society is already over. Same as if we are hit with nuclear weapons. Its complete devastation.

There's no need to be snarky just because I'm not so knowledgeable about this as you. It doesn't make me want to read your very long post when you start off so rudely, even though I'm sure you have something interesting and informative to say.

What harm would a cyber attack really do though? A day or two of systems down..it would just be an annoyance.

OMFG.

This comment is special.

I swear to god, people have no idea how the world works at all.

Lets give an example:
www.ft.com/content/acf4ac78-c738-48c6-8de1-077697e062d6
Patients fall victim to health ransomware
Cyber hackers’ access to personal data can cause havoc at medical facilities

The WannaCry ransomware attack in 2017 caused severe disruption to the NHS, costing the UK’s health service £92m and leading to the cancellation of 19,000 patient appointments.

And

In one case in Finland, the confidential treatment records of thousands of psychotherapy patients were hacked and leaked online — many patients were blackmailed to keep the data private. In September 2020, a ransomware attack took down a chain of more than 250 US hospitals and clinics.

Or shall we talk about how an attack could in theory wipe a banks records or start mass transferring money from your account. How could you prove how much money was in your account beforehand? Not everyone would be protected and it could lead to a bank collapsing.

I can promise you that security in places like this are not nearly as good as you might think and expect.

We are extremely vulnerable.

I would suggest looking into the possibilities rather than dismissing as a 24 hr only event with no consequences.

What harm would a cyber attack really do though? A day or two of systems down..it would just be an annoyance.

Shops can't sell products without till connectivity. People can't take money out of banks. People who work with computers can't work. Airlines can't fly planes.....

@Tealightsandd

Are you really trying to compare post viral symptoms with Russia invading a country and the terror that people in Ukraine are going through? That's in such poor taste it's actually stunned me

Seriously?

You express concern about people suffering terror. What, like the 160,000 people in the UK killed by Covid? And the many disabled Long Covid sufferers.

(Hope, btw that your concern for the people in Ukraine is extended to those suffering in Yemen, Ethiopia, Syria, and other conflict torn regions).

Stunning poor taste indeed to dismiss heart, lung, and brain damage, strokes, clotting, and early dementia, that is Long Covid.

Are you aware that you can care about all sorts of things at the exact same time? Lmao talk about whataboutism

@RedToothBrush same to you. There is no need to be so rude. Cyber attacks are not something I have any familiarity with apart from that one that hit the NHS a few years ago which was just a two day annoyance. Are you aware that you can inform and share your thoughts without being rude? Is this how you talk to people in real life?

There's no need to be snarky just because I'm not so knowledgeable about this as you. It doesn't make me want to read your very long post when you start off so rudely, even though I'm sure you have something interesting and informative to say.

Being uninformed does not mean you are incapable of using google to find out why so many people are worried about the threat.

Instead despite this you were arrogant and confident enough to reply that others with this fear were talking rot.

Engage your brain before typing. Its a good protection against people pointing out how ignorant your post is. Or 'being snarky' as you clearly prefer to call it.

That comment was jaw dropping. It needed picking up on and robustly challenging.

It really wasn't just a "two day annoyance".

@fghjk

On the point of consequences, I just found this 10 min video which highlights a point I hadn't even thought about: food production.

When I thought about what a war with Russia would mean I automatically jumped to the consequences on energy prices etc and didn't even think about this point.

Apart from the America is great vibe, it was a good video highlighting the food production implications. Good point.

@roses2

What harm would a cyber attack really do though? A day or two of systems down..it would just be an annoyance.

Shops can't sell products without till connectivity. People can't take money out of banks. People who work with computers can't work. Airlines can't fly planes.....

See this is what I think of when I think of a cyber attack. These things would be annoying but it is not a catastrophe for a shop to need to accept cash only for a day or two until systems are back (which they quickly would be).

And that's why you won't learn @Kinsters. Too busy being offended to bother reading what others know about to realise you're wrong and see how it could affect us. Getting snarky at me still means you're not knowledgeable about this. And lack of even basic knowledge on this topic is how they get access I'm afraid.

But it's fine, you be offended that you were wrong. That will stop the hackers.

@RedToothBrush

There's no need to be snarky just because I'm not so knowledgeable about this as you. It doesn't make me want to read your very long post when you start off so rudely, even though I'm sure you have something interesting and informative to say.

Being uninformed does not mean you are incapable of using google to find out why so many people are worried about the threat.

Instead despite this you were arrogant and confident enough to reply that others with this fear were talking rot.

Engage your brain before typing. Its a good protection against people pointing out how ignorant your post is. Or 'being snarky' as you clearly prefer to call it.

That comment was jaw dropping. It needed picking up on and robustly challenging.

Please quote where I said where anyone was talking rot!! I don't speak like that to anyone on here or in real life (unlike you).

I think this is a huge learning curve for many of us. I have been listening constantly to BBC World Service since yesterday because I don't know enough about the current conflict.

No need for some posters to shoot others down with harsh responses. We are all here to learn!

There's no need to be snarky just because I'm not so knowledgeable about this as you.

Agreed. Discussions / debates are so much better when we leave that at the door. (With the exception of genuinely batshit stuff like WHAT ABOUT LONG COVID ).

For example I had the same type of reaction when a pp mentioned how easily we could shoot planes out of the sky. As someone who knows a thing or two about directional infrared counter measures due to years of designing them... it made me giggle.

BUT we need to be aware that we're a bunch of accountants, IT experts, SAHMs, shopworkers, and everything in between. Better to educate each other and learn something than make people too self-conscious to post anything because they don't know all the facts there is to possibly know.

The video I posted is a prime example of this. Who knew just how precarious the wheat situation was? According to the guy (who might be right or wrong, an expert or a charlatan) one type of fertiliser is disappearing because of what's going on in energy markets, the other because of what's going on in China, and if this war happens the 3rd type has a shortage too.

He says if we remove all 3 at the same time, the world is over. We are literally FUCKED. So nukes and cyber attacks and planes being shot out of the sky kinda pale in significance anyway

See this is what I think of when I think of a cyber attack. These things would be annoying but it is not a catastrophe for a shop to need to accept cash only for a day or two until systems are back (which they quickly would be).

Hhaahahahhahaahahahah ok. Yes.

Hahahahhahahahahaah. Hahahhahahaha.

Did you just read whats been posted above you about the possible effects of a cyber attack.

Military level cyber attacks would be worse.

www.theguardian.com/world/2021/apr/11/israel-appears-confirm-cyberattack-iran-nuclear-facility
Israel appears to confirm it carried out cyberattack on Iran nuclear facility

If nothing else consider the implications of what could happen in just 24 hrs...

@fghjk

There's no need to be snarky just because I'm not so knowledgeable about this as you.

Agreed. Discussions / debates are so much better when we leave that at the door. (With the exception of genuinely batshit stuff like WHAT ABOUT LONG COVID ).

For example I had the same type of reaction when a pp mentioned how easily we could shoot planes out of the sky. As someone who knows a thing or two about directional infrared counter measures due to years of designing them... it made me giggle.

BUT we need to be aware that we're a bunch of accountants, IT experts, SAHMs, shopworkers, and everything in between. Better to educate each other and learn something than make people too self-conscious to post anything because they don't know all the facts there is to possibly know.

The video I posted is a prime example of this. Who knew just how precarious the wheat situation was? According to the guy (who might be right or wrong, an expert or a charlatan) one type of fertiliser is disappearing because of what's going on in energy markets, the other because of what's going on in China, and if this war happens the 3rd type has a shortage too.

He says if we remove all 3 at the same time, the world is over. We are literally FUCKED. So nukes and cyber attacks and planes being shot out of the sky kinda pale in significance anyway

Tbh i had hoped that people had generally speaking learned a little bit about supply chain disruption and the massive knock on effects due to the pandemic or the Evergiven. Or lack of ppe due to sudden changes in demand. Or just whether they can get petrol or bog roll on demand.

I think now this was clearly vastly over optimistic.

@RedToothBrush

I feel we are wasting our time on that one. She has said she doesn't want to learn, just help those who do.

@RedToothBrush

See this is what I think of when I think of a cyber attack. These things would be annoying but it is not a catastrophe for a shop to need to accept cash only for a day or two until systems are back (which they quickly would be).

Hhaahahahhahaahahahah ok. Yes.

Hahahahhahahahahaah. Hahahhahahaha.

Did you just read whats been posted above you about the possible effects of a cyber attack.

Military level cyber attacks would be worse.

www.theguardian.com/world/2021/apr/11/israel-appears-confirm-cyberattack-iran-nuclear-facility
Israel appears to confirm it carried out cyberattack on Iran nuclear facility

If nothing else consider the implications of what could happen in just 24 hrs...

I don't understand where your rudeness and aggression is coming from but I'm not engaging any further.

To add to the previous posts on cyber attacks (helping protect critical UK systems from this is part of my day job)...

999 systems could be hit. Meaning calls to the emergency services go unanswered. Limited police response because it all falls back to someone, somewhere writing down each call and trying to find who is free to respond (if the phone lines themselves are not hit - which they may be).

If they hit those, they can and probably will hit crime recording and evidence databases, meaning criminals cannot be found, arrested, charged or convicted.

NHS systems: when you hit those, wards need to close. This means people with life threatening medical events/illnesses have no where to go. Or, if the wards are allowed to remain open, limited care given because machines don't work. Surgery goes back to being analogue which reduces the types of surgery you can do and the people you can save - with younger surgeons having to learn whole new ways to operate because they have always had cimputers to help and guide them in complex cases.

Banking, communication, councils, the military, the government, police, fire response, medical response, water and energy supplies, food supplies, all vulnerable.

In short, everything requiring technology can be impacted and - as others have said - it is true that:

a) this is easier to pull of than the public imagine (a healthy dose of luck and relative geopolitical stability is what has previously provided defence)

b) it will literally take weeks, months, even years to bring some of these systems back. Both hardware and people resources will be in very short supply and there will be long queues for both.

The cyber question, is a big deal here. We have succesfully fended off those attacks but, genuinely, our defences are not that good and luck has played a large role here. That and the fact that the attacks either come from non-government sources are need to appear as if they have. So they are smaller scale, mostly. They are just out sniffing for a weakness but otherwise often not especially malevolent.

Open economic warfare with government-sponsored Russia cyber organisations prepared to come out of the shadows and target all Western countries? Different ballgame. It wouldn't be a walkover but it also is a real risk.

I can not fathom how people have managed to avoid the subject of the risk of cyber attacks to this degree.

Its beyond my comprehension.

If you don't know something, you find out. You don't just dismiss others concerns and warnings because by your own admission you don't know.

What we are effectively saying here is its ok to be arrogantly unenlightened.

No its not ok. People should be embarrassed.

Go and find out before putting crap out. Thats disinformation and denial. It should be treated with contempt.