Men should have the right to not want a baby

[user57639206]

NC as I've been shot down a few times in real life for having this opinion.

I find it bizarre that women can decide that they don't want a baby and opt for a termination (just to clarify, I completely agree with this. It's her right to choice) but when a man decides now isn't the right time, right partner or whatever the reason - he's labelled a arsehole, good for nothing or irresponsible.

Surely if a woman has the right to say "no, not right now/not for me" a man should have the same right? Without being labelled or judged!

I've seen it a few times in real life, be it from a one night stand or a not so serious relationship. The woman wants to keep the baby, the man says he doesn't (but doesn't suggest an abortion), and he's thrown under the bus.

I know there is a big difference in some sense because obviously, the woman goes through all the physical changes/trauma of having a baby - but when are men then taken to court for CA or have knives shoved in their backs for not wanting a baby?

AIBU?

Why are men complaining especially in the UK? The CMS system is shit and easy to abuse if they really don't want to pay they won't. The payments are high compared to the USA.
What's to stop a man telling a woman at 9 months pregnant he no longer wants any involvement?

I've had a termination it wasn't something I did lightly and it was horrific. Women should not be forced into them.

If men should avoid sex before they’re ready to be a father, should women also remain virgins until they are ready for motherhood?

@ConsuelaHammock

If men should avoid sex before they’re ready to be a father, should women also remain virgins until they are ready for motherhood?

Nope. Woman's body, woman's choice.

Absolutely agree with you, I also think that if a man decides before that he doesn't want a baby then he should not be liable for child support. It takes 2 to make a baby, if a woman absolutely doesn't want a child she can use birth control or not have sex if a man refuses a condom.

@ConsuelaHammock

If men should avoid sex before they’re ready to be a father, should women also remain virgins until they are ready for motherhood?

You're wasting your breath @ConsuelaHammock. There's no place for logic on this thread.

So much arguing about men having vasectomies or abstaining from sex.

As someone who has had a lot of casual sex in her life I can tell you that the venn diagram of "men who don't want kids" and "men who insist on condom use" the 2 circles are barely touching. Half these poor mens who have kids they never wanted had the choice to wear a condom and didn't bloody take it. Yes accidents happen with condoms but using them in the first place would solve a lot of the problems.

At one point I didn't want children, especially not an unplanned on with a casual relationship/ONS so despite being on the pill or having the implant at various stages of life, I still made men wear condoms. Do you think I took their word for it of they said they'd had a vasectomy or knew they were infertile? Of course I bloody didn't.

@ButtercupOfFlorin

When it comes down to it, men have no control at all beyond wearing a condom. Everything after that is under the woman's control

Oh boo hoo. So men face a little hard decision making and adversity in life. I’m sure they’ll cope.

How about actually thinking through the reasoning on this subject instead of feeding the 'mumsnet is man hating' trope?

As I've said many times, there's no real alternative. But it doesn't make what I said untrue. From the moment of conception we women have all the control. The options we have are far from easy, but the decision whether to have the child is ours to make, and the man has to lump it. I'd far rather be in our position than theirs in a truly accidental pregnancy.

Yabu and ridiculous

He does have a choice. He chooses to have sex or not.

Grow up

*How about actually thinking through the reasoning on this subject instead of feeding the 'mumsnet is man hating' trope?

As I've said many times, there's no real alternative. But it doesn't make what I said untrue. From the moment of conception we women have all the control. The options we have are far from easy, but the decision whether to have the child is ours to make, and the man has to lump it. I'd far rather be in our position than theirs in a truly accidental pregnancy.*

@saraclara completely agree and I'm so sick of everything getting shut down on here with "oh the poor menz" it's so juvenile.

One of which is knowing who their biological parents are

I don't think that a right. Some people don't know who their bio dad is and the mum doesn't know either. Should the mother be forced to contact all the potential dad's and they be forced to supply a DNA sample because the child has a right to know?

@Didyousaynutella

Because it isn’t the man who has to actually go through the process of actually ending a life if they don’t want the baby.

Because if a man were allowed to walk away if they didn’t want the baby baby then more women would feel like they had no choice to have an abortion.

Abortions for social reasons are actually illegal in the uk. So the argument is mute anyway. They are only allowed on the grounds of the mental health of the mother.

A clump of non-sentient cells is not "a life" any more than ear wax or one's latest bowel movement is FFs.

I do read a lot of threads on here about women complaining the husband doesn't want another child and they might have two or three already. Of course the husband is entitled to not want another child. I think that's ridiculous behaviour on behalf of the women. If someone tells you no, accept it and move on.

I agree tjat je shojld be able to 'opt out' officially meaning he can sign a legal document and agree that he can never go back on it and never have anything to with the child/have any rights over or say in how the child is raised etc. In return he's legally not the father.

Seems logical to me but MN HATES it when people say this, everyone I've ever seen suggesting it has been absolutely flamed. Guess it's a sensitive topic.

@OneTiredMam

Condoms aren't 100 percent though....

Then abstinence is the other option. It's really not difficult to ensure that you either avoid sex or take shared responsibility for the consequences.

Maybe have a vasectomy that solves the problem, you won't have to worry about someone getting pregnant then.

These are the arguments anti-abortionists use against women. "If she wants to have sex but doesn't want a child, she should get her tubes tied etc".

Some women get pregnant and don't want an abortion or to have the baby, so the baby goes into the care system, where they aren't all adopted into nice loving homes and abuse can be rampant, or simply the act of being adopted can cause it's own mental health issues. Those children are the victim of the care system, yes, but also the victims of two adults who "shagged carelessly".

@Willyoujustbequiet

Yabu and ridiculous

He does have a choice. He chooses to have sex or not.

Grow up

How many women would want to be in a relationship with a man who refused to have sex in case it resulted in a child they're not ready for? How many women would marry a man who refused to have sex until they are ready to have children - maybe ten years into the marriage?

This whole "well he can just not have sex then" 'argument' is so stupid and illogical that it's hard to believe that grown adults are making it.

Given that women have been royal fucked over on this issue I think it's entirely reasonable to say - in the OPs scenario - that you take responsibility for contraceptive or you don't have sex! The situation with long term relationships where there is (generally) mutual and trusting agreements with respect to children. Where this isn't the case, and trust has broken down then the one night stand rules also apply: a) abstain b) use a condom and accept the slight risk c) use nothing and understand the consequences. This whole debate is about enabling male privilege to ejaculate at will and leave women with the consequences - despite being equally responsible for them! We have a society where even women will defend a man's right to shag at will and blame women for having to bear the biological, financial and social responsibility. Women could also abstain of course. What happens when a women is raped OP and has the child - should the man also be excused from responsibility because he didn't want a child?

Why do women have babies if the men don’t want the baby? The odds for the children of single parents are stacked against them from the off. So why do it ? And why do it more than once ?

Of course not all relationships work out but surely it’s better that the child was at least conceived in a loving and committed relationship.

@twelly

If we believe that intercourse is solely to recreate then both parties enter into it with that knowledge and therefore the intention of recreating - however few have that belief. If neither side intend for a baby to be born then how can one side be blamed if this is the result - it is neither the male or female 'fault,' however, the decision on what happens next will depend upon the context.

People can not believe as much as they like, but intercourse is by nature to conceive a baby and the risk is there every time. Saying “But I didn’t mean to have sex for pregnancy” is not only being exceptionally dim but not a good enough excuse for functioning adults to use.

@jmpt29

Absolutely agree with you, I also think that if a man decides before that he doesn't want a baby then he should not be liable for child support. It takes 2 to make a baby, if a woman absolutely doesn't want a child she can use birth control or not have sex if a man refuses a condom.

How would that work practically? Would the woman he’s sleeping with have to sign a waiver? Or do we just take his word for it when he says “Well I never wanted a baby”. What if he refused to use contraception - does that make the waiver void? How can he prove he used contraception? This is a Genuine question, I would be interested in peoples ideas on how this would actually work and what resources would be used to put things in place. And who’d pay for the resources - the taxpayer?

@Natty13

So much arguing about men having vasectomies or abstaining from sex.

As someone who has had a lot of casual sex in her life I can tell you that the venn diagram of "men who don't want kids" and "men who insist on condom use" the 2 circles are barely touching. Half these poor mens who have kids they never wanted had the choice to wear a condom and didn't bloody take it. Yes accidents happen with condoms but using them in the first place would solve a lot of the problems.

At one point I didn't want children, especially not an unplanned on with a casual relationship/ONS so despite being on the pill or having the implant at various stages of life, I still made men wear condoms. Do you think I took their word for it of they said they'd had a vasectomy or knew they were infertile? Of course I bloody didn't.

That was by experience when younger too. Most men I slept with tried to dodge condom use because I was on the pill - forgetting that A. Pill isn’t 100% effective, best to double up, and B. STDs are a thing, and when I was young it was a time when the AIDS epidemic was devastating the world and lots of awareness around safe sex.

The truth is that for most of these men the bottom line is that their dick gets to feel really good, nothing else matters and any consequences will be dealt with by someone else.

These are not innocent little victims whose partners stole their sperm, they’re grown men entering into something they have no desire to take responsibility for should it all go tits up

@user57639206

I think you're missing the point.

A woman gets pregnant : she doesn't want the pregnancy, she aborts. No one's calling her a arsehole, irresponsible or awful.

A woman gets pregnant : she wants to continue the pregnancy, the man doesn't and wants to walk away. He's called an arsehole, irresponsible or awful.

I AGREE it's a woman's right to do whatever the hell she wants to do with her body, I've done it twice! Once for medical reasons and the other because I just wasn't ready. But why can a man not have the same rights?

And as for saying he should wrap it up, or not have sex. Do you say the same about women who have unplanned pregnancies? That's it's their fault for having sex in the first place and they should have used all the contraception? Pretty sure that's a no.

Because if she aborts, there isn't a living baby 9 months later born into a world of emotional trauma missing half of their heritage, healthcare history and genetics.

No matter how well a single parent does, if a father completely walks away there will always be an element of trauma. Knowingly causing that is disgusting.

How about actually thinking through the reasoning on this subject instead of feeding the 'mumsnet is man hating' trope?

Ah yes, that old chestnut, any call for men to take responsibility for their children is ‘man hating’.

There’s no reason or logic behind what you said - it’s nature and it’s law (in most places) that women get a say about pregnancy and men don’t - I’m afraid that’s tough shit, if they don’t like it they can have options to prevent or seriously minimise. But ask yourself why so many men don’t.

From the moment of conception we women have all the control. The options we have are far from easy, but the decision whether to have the child is ours to make, and the man has to lump it. I'd far rather be in our position than theirs in a truly accidental pregnancy.

If there is sex there is no accidental pregnancy, just a pregnancy that no one especially wanted. And LOL at women having the better option - because having a medical termination or raising an expensive child in your own is such a breeze.

Maybe men have to ‘lump it’ if that’s how you wanna look at it, but again tough shit - no one is forcing them to have sex, it’s a decision entirely of their own doing, they’re aware of the consequences and sometimes they have to face them. Kids know that FFS, it’s what they’re taught in school, so why are men an exception to taking basic responsibility?

@OshaOsha

One of which is knowing who their biological parents are

I don't think that a right. Some people don't know who their bio dad is and the mum doesn't know either. Should the mother be forced to contact all the potential dad's and they be forced to supply a DNA sample because the child has a right to know?

Every person should have a right to know their parentage if nothing else to get crucial medial information should they need it