To insist DD has her own cubicle (or one with a friend?)

[DiscordandRhyme]

My DD(8, nearly 9) has started swimming lessons in her school this term.

DD doesn't feel comfortable getting changed in front of all the other girls. I asked her do the boys get changed all together and she said no - they share cubicles with one other boy.

On the first week she asked and they complained at her for asking but eventually let her 15 minutes later as she was quite upset.

Second lesson her and one of her best friends asked together if they could share a cubicle with each other but the teachers said no and made them do it in the group.

There's about 9 girls in all and although DD has no specific body esteem issues she just doesn't feel comfortable and I think that should be respected 100%.

Would I be unreasonable to insist either DD gets a cubicle to herself or with a friend or I come and take her into one myself to help her? This will be a pain as it's the town over and I have a baby but I don't want my DD to already be told at this age that she has no right to boundaries.

AIBU?

@GreenFingersWouldBeHandy

I think you should help your daughter work out what her issues are about changing in front of other girls... are you ever naked in front of each other at home? Or do you more formal?

I'm naked around home if I come out the shower or if she comes in when I'm getting changed.

Also topless fairly often as breastfeed DS still. She's fine with that and she's happy for close family to be around when she does.

She has no specific reason as I have asked she just says she doesn't like being looked at even though she knows they probably aren't looking.

If no sensible resolution with the school, I’d consider withdrawing her from swim lessons and state the reason why. Escalate to the governors if required.

These:

towellingwraps.co.uk

Easy to make with 2 towels and a bit of elastic. Can be made with or without arm holes, but if for getting changed it's actually better without IMO.

I was going to agree until I realised it was a public pool and the school have no control over the facilities.

I agree with the suggestion of going already in swim suit and changing back under big dressing gown as someone else suggested.

It’s understandable for your daughter to feel self conscious getting changed at that age. I went to secondary in the 90’s and we all had to line up in front of a big walk through shower, one p.e. teacher at one end would pull the towel off you, you would literally run through as fast as poss barely touching any water and another teacher at the other end would hand the towel back. If you were any slower they would send the next girl in behind and you wouldn’t be able to look each other in the eye for the rest of the day. We all found it bloody awful. The stopped it the year we left and built cubicles.

There is unlikely to be enough changing rooms to allow this. There is also a possibility that the pool allocate them a group change to keep the changing room usable and free for other swimmers. Yes, you would be unreasonable to insist on this. It is also excessive to be suggesting you will come over to get her changed. In your place, I would be explaining the reasons for the group change. I would also be telling her that no one will be looking at her especially as they will be busy getting changed.

My boys have change towels. From decathlon that they use when body boarding on the beach

I don't really care the reasons may be. Nobody should be forced to get naked in front of a group of people they're not comfortable with.

The simple answer is to get or adapt a towel. Some children (either sex) are self concious by this age as hormones begin to change.

The pool logistics will be down to staffing and facilities. Changing time is limited by a sucession of schools coming in and out and often bus timetabling. There isn't time to allow a sucession of children to take turns to use a limited supply of cubicles.

It tends to be difficult to have an appropriate male to supervise boys. Changing will be arranged due to numbers, pool protocol and supervision needs. It may be more practical to manage the boys safely paired up in cubicles rather than a more communal space with very limited supervision as it's difficult to balance their privacy/ safeguarding and supervision with staffing of the opposite sex.

@Tilltheend99

I was going to agree until I realised it was a public pool and the school have no control over the facilities.

I agree with the suggestion of going already in swim suit and changing back under big dressing gown as someone else suggested.

It’s understandable for your daughter to feel self conscious getting changed at that age. I went to secondary in the 90’s and we all had to line up in front of a big walk through shower, one p.e. teacher at one end would pull the towel off you, you would literally run through as fast as poss barely touching any water and another teacher at the other end would hand the towel back. If you were any slower they would send the next girl in behind and you wouldn’t be able to look each other in the eye for the rest of the day. We all found it bloody awful. The stopped it the year we left and built cubicles.

I think we may have been to the same school. It was horrific wasn't it!

Of course she should be able to have the privacy, regardless of what is provided for the boys. So maybe don’t see it as the boys have privacy and the girls don’t conflict ie ‘it’s unfair’ as
that is losing the point I think, and the boys are also entitled to their own privacy . . Focus on her need ( right if you like ) for personal privacy. As others have said it may be that this is all that is being provided by the baths - (and maybe this in itself is questionable . ) with the girls getting the communal change are as the thought of a lot of. 9 year old boys all naked is maybe too much ........ You are not being unreasonable and I would raise this issue directly with the headteacher - by letter if it is impossible to talk to them. All schools should be very sensitive to issues of personal privacy and the head may be unaware of this . If there are any problems I would ask to see their policy on protecting children/safeguarding etc. Your daughter clearly needs this support and it would
be awful
if she was put off swimming because of this. Good for her for asking and shame on the teachers for refusing - girls should never be made to feel it was wrong to be assertive about their personal space. This would
be enough for me to complain about tbh. The suggestion of a swim change towel/poncho is absolutely spot on too and may be all the help she needs. But don’t

@Blossom64265

She has the right to privacy. It doesn’t matter what the constraints are at the facility, your daughter should not be pressured to remove her clothing if she is uncomfortable. This is non-negotiable. Her boundaries need to be respected.

So work with the teachers to find a solution that allows your child to participate but that does not push her boundaries or disrespect her bodily autonomy. Do not back down on this. Your daughter needs to know that she is allowed to protect herself.

Well that's it - I've suffered some bad experiences with not having my boundaries respected (though luckily at an older age) like many females have. I don't want the same fear of not being listened to or being made to feel hysterical like I have had happen.

@KarmaStar

Before asking on here you need to get all your information together,you can't hope for sound advice when people are relying on third hand information from an eight year old.

Parent who helped out confirmed some of the details . I will be getting more information from school next week though.

@Grida

The fact that she would happily share with a friend suggests that this might be more about cubicle envy than anything else.

She told me she'd share with her friend as she's self conscious too so she knows she won't look at her. So I don't think its specifically envy byr being viewed/exposed.

@Tilltheend99 and @Hippee my PE teachers at secondary school did the same thing. We had a queue at either end of the shower block and they'd whip the towel off and watch to make sure you got wet then the next girl would be sent in.

Op you cant go in and help her, baby in tow. Imagine of every parent wanted to do that? There would be carnage.

You need to get her a changing towel. Its not ideal and I understand your frustration but going in isn't going to happen or help

@Santaslittlemelter

Get her a towel she is able to change in, like a poncho but enclosed.

I’d not be too pleased about either of my dds feeling so uncomfortable with other girls catching a glimpse of their body while changing. I’d be teaching them it’s totally and utterly normal to be partially dressed and even nude in some situations.

Body autonomy and good body confidence should BOTH be important. She’s acting like this because she’s been over taught about autonomy and now she’s ashamed.

I don't think I've 'over taught' her. I've just affirmed nobody has to see her body if she doesn't want to unless there's something wrong with it (doctors, for example) but also that it's ok to be half dressed. She'll often wear just a t shirt and underpants at home as she feels comfortable at home.

Shes shown no obvious dislike of any part of her body, but I'm always open with her to talk about anything.

I’m shocked that children of her age are asked to get undressed all together in this day and age. I don’t think you should ask to go in with her as you’ll look like a helicopter parent, but how about this:

She wears her swimming costume under her school uniform, there, so she doesn’t haven’t to get undressed. Then, get one of those massive surfer beach hoodies, so she can wear that over herself, to hide under whilst getting back into her uniform. And, if possible, provide her with a button down shirt rather than polo t shirt on swimming days so she can put it on under the hoodie.

Tbh, it’s no surprise that lots of girls drop out of sports. This is not fair treatment, for girls who are starting puberty and some of them, having periods! I used to hate school swimming lessons for this reason, I found it utterly humiliating to get dressed with 40 girls I didn’t know (3 classes), and I would pull a sickie on every occasion I could, to get out of it.

@STARCATCHER22

To clarify, you think it’s unusual that a teacher might not be comfortable seeing children of the opposite sex naked unless they’re secondary school age. Seems a little odd to me.

I completely agree that your DD shouldn’t have to change communally if she is uncomfortable but please don’t make out it’s odd for the female teachers to not be comfortable seeing male students naked. I would assume you would not be happy for a male teacher to see your daughter naked.

What I mean by that is if you're looking after young kids you probably have had to help students with toileting issues, drink accidents, injuries etc so probably have had to see a half naked child more than once.

Whereas that's less likely in secondary school.

@Wheelz46

This is a really difficult one, the sports centre my son attended with school was the opposite issue.

There was a communal girls changing room but lots of cubicles that the girls were allowed to go in as there was sufficient rooms for each girl. However in the boys changing rooms there was not enough cubicles and a couple of the boys felt uncomfortable getting changed in the communal room (including my son). I spoke to school about it and they said as there was no additional needs they couldn't let them use the cubicles because if every kid might want to do the same if they see others using them.

I ended up buying him a poncho towel, he wasn't too impressed with it but preferred it to the alternative.

Sorry your son had this problem in reverse - it's important to remember girls are not the only ones who go through body changes.

We had the local swimming pool booked out so no adults in the changing rooms. There is always a male teacher placed in yrs 3 and 4 for the swim runs, the school I volunteer in is a 3 form entry.

Logistics wise we had all the yr 3 boys in the communal changing room at one end, yr 4 boys in specified rows of cubicles and the male teacher at that end. At the opposite end the same set up yr3 girls in a communal changing room, yr4 girls in cubicles with a female teacher.

Due to staffing ratios I was also there in the girls end making sure that the divide was kept as we had 60 children per run and 3 runs over a morning. We had a one male teacher for each run to deal with any issues with the boys. We were lucky that size of the changing rooms and staff ratios meant we could facilitate this.

Being on a swim run is vastly different than PE as they strip naked. They can feel much more vulnerable. I would approach school and ask what the set up is and then see about a cubicle. I believe we did have a yr3 girl in a cubicle. We tended to do 2 per cubicle as a safety measure in case a child suddenly became ill. With a single child in a cubicle you had to stand near to that door as a safeguarding measure. I think we had 4 members of staff per swim run of 60 children, 2 buses.

You could always ask to see the risk assessment for the swim run if there are members of the public in there.

@ldontWanna

How is she supposed to go to the toilet as swimming is normally in the afternoon?

She can change into her costume in the school loos at lunchtime.

Some great ideas on here - love the velcro towel!

My only other thought is check whether anyone is being mean, I know DD had problems at PE changing because the mean girls liked to point at her and insult her body while she was getting changed.

I don’t like the posts that suggest it is your daughter’s problem, or some way that you have brought her up. She is 9, that is the verge of puberty for some girls. She absolutely should know that her body is private if she wishes for goodness sake. In the next breath there will be a thread about inappropriate photos being passed around at school, of girls being persuaded to send naked photos etc to boys and how can we protect them and help them understand they don’t need to do this . We teach our girls that it’s ok to not be happy with showing their body to anyone - other girls and adult female teachers included - unless they want to. Being ok naked in front of mum is an entirely different matter . You support her wonderfully well don’t for one minute think it is her fault (sure you don’t ) or yours . Find her a solution - the towel idea is the simplest and quickest so just go for it !

@marymay62

I don’t like the posts that suggest it is your daughter’s problem, or some way that you have brought her up. She is 9, that is the verge of puberty for some girls. She absolutely should know that her body is private if she wishes for goodness sake. In the next breath there will be a thread about inappropriate photos being passed around at school, of girls being persuaded to send naked photos etc to boys and how can we protect them and help them understand they don’t need to do this . We teach our girls that it’s ok to not be happy with showing their body to anyone - other girls and adult female teachers included - unless they want to. Being ok naked in front of mum is an entirely different matter . You support her wonderfully well don’t for one minute think it is her fault (sure you don’t ) or yours . Find her a solution - the towel idea is the simplest and quickest so just go for it !

I agree. It really bothers me that some people seem to think a child's natural modesty/shyness about their own body is in some way problematic and needs to be 'remedied' by more nudity in the home. We don't all want that, and there's nothing wrong with not wanting it.

[quote SuperSocks]@ldontWanna

How is she supposed to go to the toilet as swimming is normally in the afternoon?

She can change into her costume in the school loos at lunchtime.[/quote]
Or she can wear a 2 piece swimsuit.

And, unsurprisingly schools all do their own thing. There is no "normally in the afternoon". All the schools round here swim in the morning as that's when the local pool offers school swimming sessions.