Being offended by “womanface” (drag) is bizarre

[MrsWinters]

Is anyone else thrown by the fact the Daily Mail has described the concept of being offended by drag as bizarre? I thought there was enough debate on the topic-and it has been going on for long enough to not be labelled as “bizarre”.
I’m not saying that I want to ban drag or anything, but surely I have a right to find it offensive? Otherwise aren’t we into the realms of thoughtcrime?

I saw a guy in one of the university buildings on Monday. They had a wig on and make up resembling Dusty Springfield in the 60s, a pink and white dress and pink cardigan, tights and tennis shoes. They looked most definitely masculine. I've no idea who this was, member of staff or student, if they were transitioning or in drag. But students were staring, whispering and pointing/smirking.

@Wonnle

There must be a phobia for it , a bit like the one people have of clowns . Most of them look like they should be in a circus act to me anyway

Yes!!! They freak me out in the way that clowns do! I remember being scared of them as a kid and I still don't like them now! Their heels and wigs make them appear even taller than they are and their whole presence is loud and intimidating!

I don't find drag acts offensive per se. Priscilla Queen of the Desert is one of my favourite "Oh let's just watch something funny" movies. I really don't like the use of the term "fishy" though. The term feels hatefully offensive to me.

And a pp mentioned clowns. I think that may be a huge part of it. Drag acts as they often appear these days (Drag Queen story time pictures) are in the "uncanny valley" and they are frankly frightening. Interestingly, I have a similar reaction to filled, sculpted and extremely made-up (mostly) women.

Men could presumably be drag queens without large fake tits, tons of slap and clingy outfits whilst talking to each other in a completely affected bitchy way. They don't though because to them those are the defining characteristics of women. I agree with those who say it is autogynephilia.

Humour does not have to be at someone else's expense and is not a justification.

And I agree that the "aspirational" women in the media who are filled, surgically enhanced, fake tanned and dressed in a ridiculous manner are also caricatures of women. They are catering to the male porn market pure and simple.

@Waitwhat23

You mean when publically available examples are given of AGP males becoming sexually aroused when wearing women's clothing, and who wear women's clothing specifically to seek sexual pleasure? Are you accusing the men given in my example above of this? Or is that a completely different scenario to the one you referenced which was 'But certain sections of society, eg as may be found on the feminism boards here, maintain a viewpoint that this is deviant, perverted act, and this makes it harder for men to step outside of conventional norms for clothing, and ensures the continued popularity of drag queens.' You really don't see a difference between Men exploring gendered clothing, who are not seeking a sexual thrill,

And threads referencing AGP are deleted because it is a banned term because the misogynistic monitors really don't like it being discussed.

But you know that.

I'd be very surprised

The widely held theory of the feminism boards is that males wearing female clothing are generally assumed to be seeking sexual thrills, and how would people know if they're not, so they should just stop doing it, for the sake of women and children.

It is entirely averse to males transcending the social norms of attire for their sex, and that's pretty regressive and restrictive for the males in our society.

I think most on the feminism boards are fine with men wearing whatever they want. It's when they identify as women becomes offensive. Dave in a dress, fine. Dave in a dress who insists that wearing a dress makes him a woman (because that's what all women wear obvs), insists we all call him 'they', insists he has periods and insists access to the women's loos. Nope.

The widely held theory of the feminism boards is that males wearing female clothing are generally assumed to be seeking sexual thrills, and how would people know if they're not, so they should just stop doing it, for the sake of women and children.

It is entirely averse to males transcending the social norms of attire for their sex, and that's pretty regressive and restrictive for the males in our society.

Impressive straw man you have there.

The objection is to men saying that women's clothing makes them women.

@0blio

To me it is offensive.

Can you imagine Ant and Dec parodying disabled people or people of colour? Not acceptable - but because drag is a caricature of women - that's OK?

Exactly!! I can't believe what Ant and Dec did. WTF were they thinking. Hope someone goes on the show next week and takes the piss out of a car crashing alcoholic. You know, for laughs. Idiots.

I am in my 50s, I don’t like drag so don’t watch it and have never given it much thought. And no I have never heard of drag kings. Looking back, I can think of countless examples of men dressing up as women (not drag per se just comedic dressing as women) for a laugh, very few example the opposite way.

Stopping to think about it, which I haven’t really done before, it is offensive and I am glad that people are starting to question it. When I was younger it was ok to mock people for being gay and being gay was an insult, times change and it can be good that people challenge things that were not challenged in the past.

@suggestionsplease1

Drag kings have been around for ages.

But yeah, in general girls and women have a lot more freedom to dress a variety of ways without censure. Women and girls have been permitted socially to wear traditionally male clothes for many generations now.

Boys and men do not have that luxury, you only need to look at the feminism boards here to see the fury and accusations of perversion levelled at men that dare to step outside of conventional clothing for their sex.

Ant and Dec would have got it in the neck by a minority for whatever stereotypically female clothes they had chosen to wear; any dress or skirt whatsoever, or however 'conservative' would have been considered an affront by a few, there would always have been an angle on it.

It is good that boys and young men see that they too can step outside of conventional expectations for what they wear, just like women have been doing for generations and have established as a new norm. Perhaps it is their time to establish new norms and freedoms of expression.

Great, but dressing up 'as a woman' is not going to establish new norms is it? It's still marking those clothes as 'women's' clothes.

They could just wear a skirt or flowery top once in a while if they wanted to expand the bandwith of normal for male clothing.

Personally I find drag highly offensive, but the reason the media tolerate it is the same as the reason blackface was tolerated back in the 60s/70s - "it's just a laugh" or "it's not meant to be offensive, lighten up."

I think there's also the view that white-on-black racism is The Most Offensive and Disgusting Thing Ever. Therefore other forms of discrimination and abuse like sexism are not as serious. Even other forms of racism are not as serious.

By this "standard" the media cannot treat drag as being as offensive as blackface, because that would suggest sexism is as bad as racism, which cannot possibly be.

They could just wear a skirt or flowery top once in a while if they wanted to expand the bandwith of normal for male clothing.

But you just know anything they attempted would come in for stick wouldn't it!?

Imagine they wore 'flowery tops' as you put it - you'd have people here saying "I can't believe that is their idea of more feminine clothing! How ridiculous, as if all women wear flowery tops! How misogynistic!'

The way it appears to work, to me, is that any male attempting to wear more stereotypically feminine clothing is met with jeers that they are parodying or mocking women and it is offensive and/or a fetish. Then the next thought is: 'Why don't they wear what most regular women wear if they want to diverge a bit and replicate women's fashions? In everyday fashion most women are wearing jeans! Why can't they just wear jeans for crying out loud!'

And then we're back at square one with everyone emulating an originally masculine attire and sending out the message that 'What is originally / stereotypically masculine is desirable and of value, and what is originally / stereotypically feminine is valueless, and will only be worn by males because they want to mock women, or for sexual fetish purposes.

At the heart of this thinking is a deeply anti-feminist message to my mind.

The widely held theory of the feminism boards is that males wearing female clothing are generally assumed to be seeking sexual thrills, and how would people know if they're not, so they should just stop doing it, for the sake of women and children.

Utter nonsense. Keep repeating it if you like, but it's nonsense.

Haha, and that's why I am against threads being taken down and I never report offensive posts. I really just think everything should be left to stand so that people can see how these threads unfold.

@suggestionsplease1

They could just wear a skirt or flowery top once in a while if they wanted to expand the bandwith of normal for male clothing.

But you just know anything they attempted would come in for stick wouldn't it!?

Imagine they wore 'flowery tops' as you put it - you'd have people here saying "I can't believe that is their idea of more feminine clothing! How ridiculous, as if all women wear flowery tops! How misogynistic!'

The way it appears to work, to me, is that any male attempting to wear more stereotypically feminine clothing is met with jeers that they are parodying or mocking women and it is offensive and/or a fetish. Then the next thought is: 'Why don't they wear what most regular women wear if they want to diverge a bit and replicate women's fashions? In everyday fashion most women are wearing jeans! Why can't they just wear jeans for crying out loud!'

And then we're back at square one with everyone emulating an originally masculine attire and sending out the message that 'What is originally / stereotypically masculine is desirable and of value, and what is originally / stereotypically feminine is valueless, and will only be worn by males because they want to mock women, or for sexual fetish purposes.

At the heart of this thinking is a deeply anti-feminist message to my mind.

Nah, I'm not suggesting they wear flowery tops stating anything about feminine clothing.

Maybe something like this: silky floral number

Or these: nice floral trousers

Marc Jacobs knows how to do it - google Marc Jacobs skirt. I think it's about getting the socks and footwear right.

For instance: www.pinterest.com/pin/314689092703624100/

The fact is that we live in a society where misogyny is so normalised that laughing at women, mocking women and parodying women is genuinely seen as amusing by lots of people. Most of the comments on the article go along the lines of ‘blimey people get offended by anything!! I find it funny!’

Yes, you probably do because you haven’t stopped to think that actually it’s not that funny to dress up as exaggerated versions of the oppressed minority and make inane or bitchy comments.

There’s no widely accepted genre of comedy where women go on the stage packing a massive donkey schlong, calling herself ‘Eric Tile Dysfunction’, walking like John Wayne and pretending she can’t cry or things like that are they. No form of such comedy that earns women loads of money, used as advertising by banks and all over the BBC.

I had the same thought as you op that the use of ‘bizarre’ in the headline was annoying. It’s not a bizarre complaint.

I like drag its fun! I don't get why it annoys you so much find something else to complain about if women can do what they like then so should men oh wait I forget "equality to you means women are better"

I love a bit of drag. It has been around for years and stems from gay men having to hide their identities for fear of being arrested or killed. Its an exaggeration of their own 'femininity'. They like wearing make up, they like having a waist, and they like performing. Its about gay culture far more than it is about women.

Besides which, it goes much further than that nowadays. If you've ever watched Drag Race you'll know they dress as space aliens, weird yellow creatures with chest hair, and ice cream cones. They had a bio queen last year, and Drag kings are becoming increasingly popular.

Of course, it's not to everyone's taste. You're allowed to hate it. That doesn't mean you speak for all women or that it should be banned. I think calling it womanface is incredibly offensive, doesn't mean I think you should be locked up for saying it.

As a woman and a feminist, I cringe at the word "womanface". It is the height of indulgent, middle class, white feminism to conflate drag (whether or not you consider it an aggression towards women) with blackface, which is a product of racism and colonialism and so, so much worse.

No, I don't really dig drag acts either. I avoid them completely. It's just completely gross to match the discrimination I might face as a western woman with the oppression of people from racialised communities.

Men can wear traditionally female clothing without parodying or appropriating womanhood and that's what we should be encouraging to make young people comfortable in their bodies and sexualities. Not enforcing rigid boundaries that can only be bent in limited circumstances such as trans or drag.

There are loads of examples of men wearing women's clothes without being offensive or trans. David Bowie, Julian Clary, Kurt Cobain or Evan Dando in the 90s, Barry Humphries as Dame Edna, Eddie Izzard back in the 90s, Prince, Brian Molko, Harry Styles, David Beckham, Jas Mann from Babylon Zoo, the school boys who wear a skirt as a protest because they aren't allowed to wear shorts, the runner up outfit in the final of the 2020 sewing bee, probably more besides.

It isn't about the clothes.

They didn't like it much when Clarkson made a jibe about Ant's drink driving

@InPraiseOfBacchus

As a woman and a feminist, I cringe at the word "womanface". It is the height of indulgent, middle class, white feminism to conflate drag (whether or not you consider it an aggression towards women) with blackface, which is a product of racism and colonialism and so, so much worse.

No, I don't really dig drag acts either. I avoid them completely. It's just completely gross to match the discrimination I might face as a western woman with the oppression of people from racialised communities.

Oh yes it’s fine to mock women now that YOU aren’t treated too badly.

In many countries women are still treated as second class citizens, not able to vote, aborted or killed at birth because of their sex, sold into marriage at a young age, have no reproductive choices…

I reckon you shouldn’t parody a class of people who are already treated like shit for entertainment whatever that class is.