Being offended by “womanface” (drag) is bizarre

[MrsWinters]

Is anyone else thrown by the fact the Daily Mail has described the concept of being offended by drag as bizarre? I thought there was enough debate on the topic-and it has been going on for long enough to not be labelled as “bizarre”.
I’m not saying that I want to ban drag or anything, but surely I have a right to find it offensive? Otherwise aren’t we into the realms of thoughtcrime?

'Womanface' always gets me 🤣🤣 while I find nothing offensive in drag I understand others do. Live and let live, that's all ye can do.

@Kizty

Well nobody finds it entertaining and hilarious when women dress as men. I think that tells you something.

Apart from me and the 1000s of other people who follow drag Kings and attend their shows/events?

@NightmareSlashDelightful

I think assuming that drag is mockery of women is the wrong way to look at it, personally.

No actual woman looks, talks or walks like any drag queen.

The (original) point of drag was to allow men to express otherwise socially unacceptable parts of their personality through what we’re seen as traditionally feminine tools — hair, make-up, costuming.

In my view objecting to it on the basis of womanface is actually falling into the stereotypes trap; that certain things (hair styles, make-up, jewellery, certain outfits) are only suitable for women.

What about the massive boobs? And the misogynistic jokes? And the use of the term "fishy" to describe a drag queen that looks like a woman? Is that part of men expressing their personality as well? If so, #nothankyou

@Kizty

Well nobody finds it entertaining and hilarious when women dress as men. I think that tells you something.

This, every time. If men do it but there's no female equivalent, that always tells you it's sexist.

Some people find it offensive and I’ve seen them list reasons on here as to why-not that they should have to explain themselves.. That’s fine of course, and I can understand some of the reasons to be honest, but still don’t find it offensive myself and have really enjoyed going to drag shows/drag race.

I find it misogynistic, deeply unfunny and kind of repulsive. They just look awful.

I think assuming that drag is mockery of women is the wrong way to look at it, personally. No actual woman looks, talks or walks like any drag queen.

Yes, because people mock by exaggerating. Doing an exaggerated, non-realistic impression of someone or of a particular type of person is mocking. Saying "Oh but no woman/black person/disabled person actually really looks like that" doesn't make it any more acceptable. But no... I guess it's just the woman/black person/disabled person 'taking it the wrong way' and failing to have a sense of humour.

It comes down to this: would it be hilarious and fabulous to see a woman dress in a suit or a dinner jacket? No. And that's not because 'women have more freedom in what to wear'. It's because things women have historically chosen or been expected to do and wear are viewed as either frivolous or sexual by men.

Are you REALLY surprised that the Daily Mail doesn't stand up for women?

So offensive.

It comes down to this: would it be hilarious and fabulous to see a woman dress in a suit or a dinner jacket? No. And that's not because 'women have more freedom in what to wear'. It's because things women have historically chosen or been expected to do and wear are viewed as either frivolous or sexual by men.

It would certainly have been both hilarious and fabulous to see a woman dress in a suit or a dinner jacket in the 1860s or 70s. Male impersonators had very popular stage acts during these decades and beyond.

Their popularity was due to their contrast with the social norms of the time, which did not conventionally permit women to wear masculine attire. Their acts involved accentuated portrayals of masculinity beyond attire - movement, voice etc - the more 'hyper masculine' the performance, the more popular the impersonator was.

And that is exactly what we are seeing now.

Drag kings do not seem so salient now (outside of LGBT+ community anyway) because it is not unusual or entertaining to see women wearing masculine attire: it is entirely conventional . And entirely unconventional for men to wear women's clothing.

When we get to a time that men can wear women's clothing and for it to be unexceptional, I imagine we will see a decrease in drag queens.

But certain sections of society, eg as may be found on the feminism boards here, maintain a viewpoint that this is deviant, perverted act, and this makes it harder for men to step outside of conventional norms for clothing, and ensures the continued popularity of drag queens.

you only need to look at the feminism boards here to see the fury and accusations of perversion levelled at men that dare to step outside of conventional clothing for their sex.

What? Please provide receipts. I'd be very surprised if anyone on FWR said that men shouldn't wear traditionally feminine clothing, and if they did they were perverts. After all, many of us were teens and twenties in the 1980s.

But certain sections of society, eg as may be found on the feminism boards here, maintain a viewpoint that this is deviant, perverted act, and this makes it harder for men to step outside of conventional norms for clothing, and ensures the continued popularity of drag queens.

I mean, this is nonsense in regards to the Feminism board. Men wearing traditionally 'feminine' clothes - Harry Styles, Billy Porter and the new romantics of the 70's and 80's - these are all examples of men wearing what they like. Fab!

What they aren't/weren't doing is presenting a ridiculously caricatured version of a women - fake boobs and over the top make up.

And the term 'fishy', referring to the smell of women's genitals, used as widespread terminology in drag is appallingly misogynistic. It's hard to understand how those who defend drag as not offensive to women are able to justify that to themselves.

It seems a real week for misogynistic gay men. First I watch the Adam Kay drama and that's belittling women in Labour then I read about John barrowman sticking his penis in his female colleagues faces and now womanface! What next?

I am offended by part of my licence fee (and everyone else's) being spent on Mrs Brown's Boys. Mind you, the fact it is full of foul language, not funny, and some of cast are alleged tax avoiders may be a large part, not the lead character being a man in drag.

There are constant references to autogynephilia on the feminism boards whenever males wearing women's clothes come up.

Then it turns into cries about women 'unwillingly being made to validate men's fetishes' just by being in the same room as a male wearing women's clothes.

And then, when posters get more graphic in their descriptions of what they think men are up to when wearing women's clothes, the mods delete the thread.

So I'm sorry - I would love to provide links to the threads, but they're always taken down.

Mumsnet - can you reinstate the deleted ones so we can all see what happens please? Thanks.

You mean when publically available examples are given of AGP males becoming sexually aroused when wearing women's clothing, and who wear women's clothing specifically to seek sexual pleasure? Are you accusing the men given in my example above of this? Or is that a completely different scenario to the one you referenced which was 'But certain sections of society, eg as may be found on the feminism boards here, maintain a viewpoint that this is deviant, perverted act, and this makes it harder for men to step outside of conventional norms for clothing, and ensures the continued popularity of drag queens.' You really don't see a difference between Men exploring gendered clothing, who are not seeking a sexual thrill,

And threads referencing AGP are deleted because it is a banned term because the misogynistic monitors really don't like it being discussed.

But you know that.

I'd be very surprised

Posted too soon. Last sentence should read - I'd be very surprised if this post (and your own) aren't deleted for merely referencing AGP.

@suggestionsplease1

There are constant references to autogynephilia on the feminism boards whenever males wearing women's clothes come up.

Then it turns into cries about women 'unwillingly being made to validate men's fetishes' just by being in the same room as a male wearing women's clothes.

And then, when posters get more graphic in their descriptions of what they think men are up to when wearing women's clothes, the mods delete the thread.

So I'm sorry - I would love to provide links to the threads, but they're always taken down.

Mumsnet - can you reinstate the deleted ones so we can all see what happens please? Thanks.

I think you have completely misunderstood. Most of the FWR posters have no problem at all with men wearing clothing traditionally associated with women. Why would they? Most feminists reject gender norms.

The issue is with adult males claiming that they are women and using women's spaces and competing in women's sports, so women have no female-only spaces and female-only sports. It's also with men using transwomen as Trojan horses to gain access to women's spaces.

Absolutely you have the right to be offended by it

And im slightly surprised that as many as 18% of posters think you haven’t got that right

I think people are confused as the vote is opposite to the thread title.

Erm. Drag Kings? Some fabulous male impersonation artists/entertainers.

Like Melissa McCarthy doing Sean Spicer.

Dick Emery/Stanley Baxter in the 70s were not “drag queens”.

Do you know any drag queens? Ask them why they are doing it?
I know plenty, and not one of them do it to parody women. They have a love for the clothing, make up etc

If you think that we, as women, are defined by these clothes and make up then I believe that's the issue. I'm not in the slightest offended or feel it's making fun/light of women.

Not saying there's nothing wrong with Drag, but you do get women dressing as men for comic effect e.g. French and Saunders, Kathy Burke as Perry

The difference is that drag queens always have oversized boobs hanging out and exaggerated makeup. And they talk all camp as if this is what women talk like.

@balalake

I am offended by part of my licence fee (and everyone else's) being spent on Mrs Brown's Boys. Mind you, the fact it is full of foul language, not funny, and some of cast are alleged tax avoiders may be a large part, not the lead character being a man in drag.

This program is actually much more offensive.

But certain sections of society, eg as may be found on the feminism boards here, maintain a viewpoint that this is deviant, perverted act, and this makes it harder for men to step outside of conventional norms for clothing, and ensures the continued popularity of drag queens.

LOL yes it's all the fault of FWR of course.

Men and women should have the freedom to wear what they want. But drag is offensive and unfunny.