Being offended by “womanface” (drag) is bizarre

[MrsWinters]

Is anyone else thrown by the fact the Daily Mail has described the concept of being offended by drag as bizarre? I thought there was enough debate on the topic-and it has been going on for long enough to not be labelled as “bizarre”.
I’m not saying that I want to ban drag or anything, but surely I have a right to find it offensive? Otherwise aren’t we into the realms of thoughtcrime?

I hate it, theres a difference between looking glamorous/cross dressing and being a deliberately grotesque caricature in the style of a pantomime dame. and they were invented to take the piss out of women.

its time they were banned they are sexist, offensive rubbish.

I find this issue quite difficult because I hate the sexualised drag acts but I do think it can be very funny in theatre.

No one is getting locked up for thought crimes.

Well you say that, but more than one person who has raised a concern about men claiming womanhood and encroaching on women’s spaces has been visited by the police to “check their thinking” so it’s not as far-fetched or hyperbolic as you may think.

I find it massively offensive.

@CallmeBadJanet

What's deeply offensive is how shit Ant and Dec were at drag.

Tbf, they're shit at most things.

@lucylucyapplejuicy

It doesn't bother me I'm interested to know why it would bother people though?

It doesn't overly bother me, I don't get offended at much really. But I think it's a little hypocritical for people to go on about the horrors of cultural appropriation yet its completely OK to pretend to be a woman - sex appropriation I guess it could be called. Why is one widely accepted but not the other?

Yanbu

Why does 'not looking like real women' make drag 'not womanface'? Blackface is a white performer dressing up as a caricature of a black person; in costume the performers don't look like real black people. Womanface is equivalent

To say because drag doesn’t actually look like a woman then it isn’t offensive is inaccurate. I don’t think anyone thought blackface was accurate- and surely it’s the gross exaggeration that actually make it so offensive?
Similarly the comment that drag has existed since the 1800? Well so did blackface?
I’m allowed to find drag distasteful, I find the DMs reaction to calling a fairly common view bizarre unreasonable and blinkered. (But then much of what they report is)

It doesn’t appeal to me but my DD loves it, so…
I can’t get offended by it though.

I’m allowed to find drag distasteful

Yes, you are. And others are allowed to say they find that view bizarre. That has no bearing on whether or not you're allowed to hold the view that drag is distasteful.

I think you're confusing disagreement with condemnation.

@0blio

To me it is offensive.

Can you imagine Ant and Dec parodying disabled people or people of colour? Not acceptable - but because drag is a caricature of women - that's OK?

I saw a clip of Ant & Dec rehearsing on TikTok and was

@mistermagpie

I don't know any real women who look remotely like that.

Isn't that the point? Women don't look like that, but it's a mans exaggerated imagining of what being a woman is. It's the same reason that you find a lot of trans women dress in hyper feminine frilly/flowery stuff that a lot of biological women would never ever wear.

I'm not personally offended by drag as such, but I don't find it entertaining and the idea that dressing up in an approximation of opposite sex is hilarious seems quite childish to me.

I often think that it's actually a kind of feminine presentation of male sexuality, and specifically the kind of gay male sexuality that you find on the club scene.

So not really female at all, but a kind of personification of what happens when you take male sexuality and direct it towards other men.

Which is why it's completely bizarre that it's entered pop culture in the way it has, or especially that it's seen as appropriate for kids.

But the OPs question was about whether or not it was commonly controversial rather than what anyone thinks about it specifically.

The comments section is the usual pit of dimwittery ‘Well, I found it hilaaaarious!’ etc

I agree, OP. It’s not ‘bizarre’ to find drag uncomfortable to watch, grotesque & offensive. I don’t find it funny or entertaining, I find it fucking creepy.

@Itwasntmeright

I find it offensive, not because men are dressing in women’s clothing, but because they present grotesque exaggerations of sexist and misogynistic stereotypes and somehow it’s supposed to be hilarious and entertaining. If white people were to do black face and present grotesque exaggerations of racist stereotypes it wouldn’t be hilarious and entertaining, it would be racist and unacceptable, and rightly so. This is the daily fail though, so…

Well put. Intent matters too. Dame Edna Everage isn't offensive because she isn't poking fun at women - she's a character that Barry Humphries uses to poke fun at (mainly) politicians and celebs.

Drag has always had a misogynistic streak but, 20 years ago, a lot of drag artists were using drag to send up themselves and to subvert negative stereotypes about gay men. Now it's just a bunch of powerful men, punching down.

I think assuming that drag is mockery of women is the wrong way to look at it, personally.

No actual woman looks, talks or walks like any drag queen.

The (original) point of drag was to allow men to express otherwise socially unacceptable parts of their personality through what we’re seen as traditionally feminine tools — hair, make-up, costuming.

In my view objecting to it on the basis of womanface is actually falling into the stereotypes trap; that certain things (hair styles, make-up, jewellery, certain outfits) are only suitable for women.

And the "fishy" stuff?

I wonder what the historic process was like by which women diverged from stereotypically feminine clothes and it became more socially acceptable for them to emulate men in appearance.

I wonder what men were thinking during those times. I'm sure some of them probably found it a complete affront to masculinity, grotesque to see the outline of a woman's legs in trousers rather than hidden behind skirts. I'm sure there was some horror from some quarters like there is now.

There was probably more horror the extent to which a woman aped a greater number of stereotypically masculine displays, footwear, trousers, tops etc...maybe some of them might have felt more forgiving of more benign, entry level attempts at emulating men - eg a watch was acceptable.

Built into this offense now appears to be a value system that denigrates women. That says, to wear what has been stereotypically representative of women must be a parody - because who would want to emulate that? Whereas it seems perfectly acceptable for women to wear what is considered masculine, because -what..? That it is aspirational? Masculine signifiers are valuable, to be esteemed,
desired and replicated - because what - to be male is to be 'better'? But stereotypically feminine signifiers must only be a parody and offensive and could never be an inherently desirable thing in its own right.

I think if people are thinking like that they are working to a value system that elevates men and demotes women. Which seems like it should be pretty contrary to feminism, no?

The article takes me straight to comments so I couldn’t read it.

Regardless of whether you don’t or do mind drag though there is something really controlling about dictating whether someone else is allowed to be offended or not by something. It reminds me of bullies who label someone over sensitive for not laughing with them or the cool girl hand maiden types who say women with standards are uptight. If something upsets someone else that doesn’t upset me then I acknowledge that they have a right to feel that way, branding them bazaar in faux bemusement would be nothing short of gaslighting.

It's bad and i'm 100% sure it doesn't belong in toddler and babies story time

I don’t find drag offensive. I’ve just viewed as men dressing up, playing a role.

Never heard of the term ‘Womanface’ before.

I mostly find it tedious. The double entendre and affected bitchy behaviour - wrapped up in over sexualised presentation. Tedious and misogynistic.

Men in drag aren’t just appropriating women though are they? They’re not getting about in joggers and T-shirts while they’re in drag are they? It’s highly sexualised. That’s the whole thing.

And where the artefacts of an oppressed group are paraded by the dominant group (in this case… a caricature of women’s features) for a laugh, to poke fun at, or vanity - then that’s appropriation. Sex appropriation in this case.

I struggle to understand what’s offensive about drag to be honest. It’s a form of entertainment, if it’s not your style or you’re not entertained by it then fair enough but what really is offensive about it?