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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Angel kidnapping

171 replies

WorkHardPlayHard1 · 22/02/2022 08:35

AIBU to be sick to the back teeth by this crime and the lenient sentences.

What can we do to change the law, the sentence and what to do with proven controlling members of society?

He is gonna come out and do the same no doubt. How can we stop this before it happens to womenkind again?

news.sky.com/story/amp/angel-lynn-family-of-teenager-who-was-thrown-out-of-van-call-for-tougher-sentences-for-her-kidnappers-12542792

Come on ladies, if this was the judge's daughter would this even happen?? I can't comprehend why the sentences are so lenient??

OP posts:
catscatscatseverywhere · 22/02/2022 15:45

I was wondering, what chances of recovery does this poor girl have? I just can't imagine the misery of hers and her family.

SheldonesqueTheBstard · 22/02/2022 15:50

sartres

I’m so very sorry for your loss.

It should not matter that it wasn’t pre-planned. The injuries he inflicted had one outcome.

If men continue to get soft sentences for murdering or severely injuring someone then there is no deterrent.

It is infuriating. And sickening.

Flowers
EvilPea · 22/02/2022 15:54

@Ponoka7

This can be the issue with a jury. You only need a percentage to not understand how DV/ controlling behaviour effects MH. A few who don't get DV and minimise/excuse and of course outright sexists. But then our sentence structure is a joke anyway and people, even child killers don't serve much of their sentence.
I’ve been on a jury service (not this one) and whilst I felt he probably did do the crime. There wasn’t the evidence to push it over the reasonable doubt threshold for me. If the defence really played the “she jumped” card, it would be hard on the reasonable doubt.

However.
The rest of the crimes were clear cut by the looks of it as they got the conviction, so the sentencing should have been a lot longer

FacebookPhotos · 22/02/2022 15:55

If it is not a crime when someone escapes from their abuser and sustains injuries in the process, then this should be the case that sets that precedent.

I agree that there needs to be a new law if no existing laws cover this. If someone is injured during an escape attempt then of course the kidnapper should be held responsible for the injuries. It obviously wouldn't mean this man could be further charged, but it would change things for the future.

mummykel16 · 22/02/2022 16:06

@WorkHardPlayHard1

AIBU to be sick to the back teeth by this crime and the lenient sentences.

What can we do to change the law, the sentence and what to do with proven controlling members of society?

He is gonna come out and do the same no doubt. How can we stop this before it happens to womenkind again?

news.sky.com/story/amp/angel-lynn-family-of-teenager-who-was-thrown-out-of-van-call-for-tougher-sentences-for-her-kidnappers-12542792

Come on ladies, if this was the judge's daughter would this even happen?? I can't comprehend why the sentences are so lenient??

Proper pissed off with this, he should have got life. Courts are a waste of space now. And so called mandatory sentences are a joke, because they are never given.

This thug should end his days in prison, as his poor wee victim will.

EvilPea · 22/02/2022 16:07

@FacebookPhotos

If it is not a crime when someone escapes from their abuser and sustains injuries in the process, then this should be the case that sets that precedent.

I agree that there needs to be a new law if no existing laws cover this. If someone is injured during an escape attempt then of course the kidnapper should be held responsible for the injuries. It obviously wouldn't mean this man could be further charged, but it would change things for the future.

I completely agree with this. A bit like the reasonable force thing. If she jumped, she was forced to out of fear. It should be treated as if she was pushed.
mummykel16 · 22/02/2022 16:12

New laws won't help as the current ones are not used

It's disgusting how the Law is Ignored by judges

FacebookPhotos · 22/02/2022 16:36

@mummykel16

New laws won't help as the current ones are not used

It's disgusting how the Law is Ignored by judges

Tbf, it sounds like the CPS did attempt to use the current laws - the jury weren't convinced.

And if the sentence was unduly lenient (based on the crimes he was convicted for) the Court of Appeal should make it longer.

I agree that not all judges make good judgements. But by the time it gets to the CoA or Supreme Court reasonable judgements are usually made.

mummykel16 · 22/02/2022 16:54

Hardly.

diddl · 22/02/2022 17:03

"If it is not a crime when someone escapes from their abuser and sustains injuries in the process, then this should be the case that sets that precedent."

That sounds like a good idea.

I mean if there is no proof that she was pushed or fell out due the the van not being secured, doesn't it have to be ruled as not guilty on that point?

But logic obviously tells us that if he hadn't put her into the van in the first place...

TheUsualShitshow · 22/02/2022 17:25

@Pyri

It is awful, so upsetting and I can’t imagine what Angel and the family have been through

I think the sentence was more lenient because they couldn’t prove if he pushed her or she jumped from the van? Which is totally wrong because it should be assumed worst case.

Only, that's the exact opposite of how verdicts are reached. You can't 'assume worst case' in the absence of evidence, bloody hell!
HeadPain · 22/02/2022 17:28

Putting this here then I'll try to make sense of it all later in regard to this case www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/offences-against-person-incorporating-charging-standard

Hoppinggreen · 22/02/2022 17:33

In America there is Culpable homicide
I think that if someone is killed ( which I appreciate Angel wasn’t) during a crime even if by accident the criminals can be charged with murder so perhaps something similar could be brought in?
Obviously I am neither American nor a lawyer so I am not completely clear of the ins and outs of this

mummykel16 · 22/02/2022 18:24

[quote HeadPain]Putting this here then I'll try to make sense of it all later in regard to this case www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/offences-against-person-incorporating-charging-standard[/quote]
Judges ignore guidelines and mandatory sentencing routinely.
Always to the benefit of criminals
Sadly this young lady has been abandoned by a corrupt justice system, as so many are.

lemmein · 22/02/2022 19:07

@JetTail

It can't be manslaughter as she's not dead. If she had died, perhaps a manslaughter charge might have been brought. But yes, it's something that needs to be looked at perhaps. Injuries sustained while trying to escape? I don't think such a crime exists. Anywhere.
Agree with this, it definitely needs looking at. If you commit a crime against someone and as a direct result of that crime they are hurt/killed you should be charged with attempted manslaughter/murder. Would Angel have been injured without his actions? No - so he should be responsible in law, whether she was pushed or jumped.

It is sickening that he was smirking in the court - scum!

Poor girl and her family going through that. I have DDs the same age - I couldn't rest knowing her was still breathing tbh.

lemmein · 22/02/2022 19:13

*he

Pyri · 22/02/2022 20:09

@TheUsualShitshow I think it’s fair to assume that he had very bad intentions given he kidnapped her? You don’t kidnap someone just to take them for lunch or something

TheUsualShitshow · 22/02/2022 21:48

Well sure, of course, but that's not how the justice system operates is it?

NumberTheory · 23/02/2022 01:50

Kidnapping is an offence against common law. i.e. there isn't a specific statute passed by parliament that makes it a crime, it exists as a crime by precedence because it was recognised as a crime by the courts long, long ago before the criminal justice system was anything like it is today and that has been considered sufficient. Murder is the same.

There are no sentence boundaries attached to it so judges are able to set any sentence, including life. But they should be guided, normally by the sentencing Council, but they don't seem to have any guidance on it so, in lieu of that, as before the Sentencing Council and its predecessor, by the pronouncements of higher courts and by precedence set by case law.

From <a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20120421181525/www.cps.gov.uk/legal/s_to_u/sentencing_manual/kidnapping_false_imprisonment/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">an archived CPS page, here's the guidance that used to apply:

Guideline case R v Spence and Thomas (1983) 5 Cr.App.R.(S.) 413
There is a wide possible variation in seriousness between one instance of kidnapping and another. At the top of the scale comes the carefully planned abductions where the victim is used as a hostage or where ransom money is demanded. Such offences will seldom be met with less than 8 years' imprisonment or thereabouts. Where violence or firearms are used, there are other exacerbating features such as detention of the victim over a long period of time, then the proper sentence will be very much longer than that. At the other end of the scale are those offences which can perhaps scarcely be classed as kidnapping at all. They very often rise as a sequel to family tiffs or lovers' disputes, and seldom require anything more than 18 months' imprisonment, and sometimes a great deal less.

and (from the same page), quoted relevant case law:

R v Dzokamshure [2009] 1 Cr. App. R. (S.) 112
Appellant's relationship with a woman for six months had ended. Months later he went to her home, broke his way in, punched her, dragged her out and forced her into her car. Another man was seated therein. The appellant drove the car on the motorway and prevented her from answering a call on her mobile phone. Eventually he stopped on a slip road and allowed her to get out. Previous good character. Guilty plea. The victim had indicated that that she did not want him to serve a custodial sentence and was unwilling to give evidence. Sentence of 18 months' imprisonment upheld.

[My emphasis both times]

That last case isn't from all that long ago. I think over the last decade or so the Government and the courts have begun to take domestic violence far more seriously. (Maybe this is why the Sentencing Council have failed to come up with anything so far because they can't decide between erring towards precedence or more contemporary pressures without more guidance from government? I don't know. Maybe it's another reason like they have to be asked to cover common law crimes). In any case, given that guidance and what has been the case in the past, I think the judges sentence is wrong, but unsurprising. I hope the court of appeal make the sentence much longer and that sets precedence for the future.

Pyri · 23/02/2022 05:24

@TheUsualShitshow

Well sure, of course, but that's not how the justice system operates is it?
Yes, and that’s why I said “which is totally wrong” Confused
Margot78 · 26/03/2022 22:38

I so glad it’s been raised to 12 years but it’s still not enough. He had been controlling and unpleasant before he did this, clearly he meant to do her harm. It really disturbs me how crimes against women are not adequately punished. There are some real psychos out there who are prepared to ruin a woman’s life. The video of her abduction is chilling. Now she has life changing injuries while that monster can look forward to his freedom.

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