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Original poster

Angel kidnapping

171 replies

WorkHardPlayHard1 · 22/02/2022 08:35

AIBU to be sick to the back teeth by this crime and the lenient sentences.

What can we do to change the law, the sentence and what to do with proven controlling members of society?

He is gonna come out and do the same no doubt. How can we stop this before it happens to womenkind again?

news.sky.com/story/amp/angel-lynn-family-of-teenager-who-was-thrown-out-of-van-call-for-tougher-sentences-for-her-kidnappers-12542792

Come on ladies, if this was the judge's daughter would this even happen?? I can't comprehend why the sentences are so lenient??

OP posts:
UnevenBooks · 22/02/2022 14:04

What I meant was they can't prove that his intent was to cause her severe bodily injuries, not just to trap her to continue the argument that she had initially left the van for.

However, as far as I'm aware, not calling services after the fact would surely make him liable for something more than he got?

Brefugee · 22/02/2022 14:05

I'm confused as to why Pickles thinks it is ok for anyone to pick someone up and shove them in a van because they have a relationship.

There is no reason for a grown woman to be picked up and forced into a van except under very very special circs (say, she's literally harming herself and it's the emergency services)

I don't know why it would be ok.

ChuckBerrysBoots · 22/02/2022 14:05

If it wasn’t proven i mean.

JetTail · 22/02/2022 14:06

@Brefugee

I'm confused as to why Pickles thinks it is ok for anyone to pick someone up and shove them in a van because they have a relationship.

There is no reason for a grown woman to be picked up and forced into a van except under very very special circs (say, she's literally harming herself and it's the emergency services)

I don't know why it would be ok.

Well clearly she was being a naughty girl and not doing what her boyfriend told her to do. So it was perfectly ok to kidnap the silly woman.
UnevenBooks · 22/02/2022 14:06

:04JetTail

It doesn't matter why he kidnapped her! It matters only that he kidnapped her!

It matters if you are trying to bring certain charges, legally. I'm not saying I agree with the sentence, I've already said I don't agree as, even if she jumped she must be fearing for her life, right?

But the burden of proof issue is why he was convicted for kidnapping, and not GBH or attempted murder etc, because they couldn't prove intent to kill, couldn't prove she was pushed, and the law seems to think if you attempt to escape a kidnapping and harm yourself in the process that you are responsible.

I'm not saying it's morally OK, just trying to rationalise how he got such a shitty sentence.

Hoppinggreen · 22/02/2022 14:07

@JetTail

It doesn't matter why he kidnapped her! It matters only that he kidnapped her! Sheesh
Because she was pretty??
ChuckBerrysBoots · 22/02/2022 14:07

@Brefugee

I'm confused as to why Pickles thinks it is ok for anyone to pick someone up and shove them in a van because they have a relationship.

There is no reason for a grown woman to be picked up and forced into a van except under very very special circs (say, she's literally harming herself and it's the emergency services)

I don't know why it would be ok.

I don’t think they are saying it’s okay. But intent is relevant to sentencing. An aggravating factor includes “an intention to commit more serious harm than actually resulted from the offence” - if he pulled her into the van to assault her is different from a sentencing perspective than if he pulled her in to continue a row.
UnevenBooks · 22/02/2022 14:09

I'm confused as to why Pickles thinks it is ok for anyone to pick someone up and shove them in a van because they have a relationship.

I didn't read it like that. I read it as, clearly that's not ok and abusive and controlling, but that it doesn't by itself prove to a court that he was intending to kill her or that he threw her out, unfortunately.

I think their wording was off, but i don't think they are saying that it's their opinion, but that this is why they could get him for kidnapping but not the other things.

Brefugee · 22/02/2022 14:09

if that was indeed what pickles meant, a head's up would have been good. Because i just read the post again and that's not what it says.

I get that for a jury to convict and in sentencing there are other considerations. On a forum discussing the kidnap of a young woman? not so much, unless you clearly state that.

HoldMeCloseImTryingToDanceHere · 22/02/2022 14:10

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

FAQs · 22/02/2022 14:10

It doesn’t say it in the link but another aggravating factor is they laughed and smirked through the trial and had to be pulled up on it by the judge. Bastards.

UnevenBooks · 22/02/2022 14:14

And also we know not all jurors will agree, and only two are allowed to disagree in a jury of 12. In a jury of 9, it must be unanimous - If even one person can't be convinced that he threw her out the van or that his intention by kidnapping was to kill/rape/physically harm, then it won't get through.

We can sit here and say "well why else would he kidnap her?" but without proof of specific threats or intent this is what happens. Angry

foxlover47 · 22/02/2022 14:14

This broke my heart , the sentence was absolutely disposable

foxlover47 · 22/02/2022 14:15

Disgusting sorry

JetTail · 22/02/2022 14:16

When people die or have their life altered, everyone mourns the loss of everything they were. I am sure that this young lady was a lot more than a pretty face. But yes, that is something that makes it so terribly tragic. If she was a Dutch-Gold-loving homeless junkie, high on heroin, a loss would be equally as tragic to me. But those losses are rarely mentioned. This young lady had massive potential. Her looks makes the loss worse. It actually does. You don't like it as the homeless junkie has no value to you. And you don't like that this young lady's horrific injuries are seen as more important even to you, even if you don't like to admit it to yourself.

It's also heart-breaking because of the disparity in how she looks now. A stunner is now unrecognisable, she is paralysed and cannot even communicate. If you can't see that loss as being relevant, then you're deluding yourself.

UnevenBooks · 22/02/2022 14:19

If that was indeed what pickles meant, a head's up would have been good. Because i just read the post again and that's not what it says.

True. It was this part that made me read it as "this could be what is going through jurors head thinking about the legalities of the situation, proof etc." even if the rest of the post was heavy-handed/not quite right with how it was constructed....

--

I think ^^ explains why it isn't a higher sentence. I don't agree with it, but I can see why it happened. I agree, he effectively killed her. It's appalling.

HeadPain · 22/02/2022 14:19

In this video on this link it says during sentencing the Judge said that he was satisfied Clay had "meted out violence" towards Angel "causing bruising on at least two occasions" and "bombarded her with repulsive messages", as well as abuse of coercive and controlling nature revolving around what she could wear and look like - make up, and where she could go. "controlling her freedom of movement by a variety of means", which he was convicted of. Doesn't seem he was found guilty for any violence. Jury found him not guilty of the grievous bodily harm charge, regarding the van. Previous violence not charged? But the Judge says he did it. Hmm? www.itv.com/news/central/2022-02-02/dont-wear-this-or-that-aunt-speaks-about-controlling-behaviour-angel-faced

JetTail · 22/02/2022 14:20

And I know both from personal experience and from experience with other victims of DV, very often, the motivation for attacks are to ensure that no other man can have you. They will attack the face. They will isolate you. They will embarrass you. They will try to maim you. Not because they are just arseholes with anger issues. Because they do not want any other man to have you.

JetTail · 22/02/2022 14:22

[quote HeadPain]In this video on this link it says during sentencing the Judge said that he was satisfied Clay had "meted out violence" towards Angel "causing bruising on at least two occasions" and "bombarded her with repulsive messages", as well as abuse of coercive and controlling nature revolving around what she could wear and look like - make up, and where she could go. "controlling her freedom of movement by a variety of means", which he was convicted of. Doesn't seem he was found guilty for any violence. Jury found him not guilty of the grievous bodily harm charge, regarding the van. Previous violence not charged? But the Judge says he did it. Hmm? www.itv.com/news/central/2022-02-02/dont-wear-this-or-that-aunt-speaks-about-controlling-behaviour-angel-faced[/quote]
I hadn't even read that and I just knew, that he would be fucking delighted that no man will ever want her now. And you think her looks were not relevant? Really?

HeadPain · 22/02/2022 14:22

This violence and controlling abuse during their year long relationship. She went to live with him when boyfriends and girlfriends couldn't meet up during COVID lockdown and began living with each other. And were encouraged to by the government.

Fcuk38 · 22/02/2022 14:27

I agree with a previous poster .... no it doesn’t matter About her beauty. But what it shows it the difference. And the damage that has been caused. She had the sunshine beaming out of her eyes and her whole life ahead of her to now be confined to a bed. Angel you are still beautiful and so very very brave.

KookaburraSits · 22/02/2022 14:27

I've figured out the other reason I find this case so uncomfortable. It's the system buying into the myth that women are irrational and hysterical, and that by throwing themselves from moving vans or balconies they are not behaving reasonably, that they are being silly to imagine their lives are endangered by the men who have broken into their apartment with a knife or bodily lifted them from the street into a van. That's the only way I can see the court holding them responsible for their own injuries when the decision to jump was clearly not a free one.
"Reasonable belief" is brought up a lot in rape cases. Strangely in that scenario it tends to work in men's favour Hmm

JetTail · 22/02/2022 14:31

I'd love to know what these repulsive messages were. I would bet my life they involved telling her that she was ugly, that no other man would love her, that she was lucky that he loved her, that she was useless, a whore, he only fucked her as he felt sorry for her etc. etc.

JetTail · 22/02/2022 14:34

These are some examples of emails I received from a man I finished with in December.

"Stalking? Really don’t flatter yourself." (in reference to me telling me he was stalking me by driving
my my house and sitting watching my house while he was supposed to be working and then
eventually gaining entry to my house)

"you are an object and I felt nothing probably like the other blokes that fuck you, you put out to easy"

"does he actually know what a nut job you are and how unstable you are?" (in reference to my
brother)

"Haha I was never at work when I fucked you, I’d finished it was just a way I didn’t have to stay" (in
reference to me saying that he had visited me on several occasions while he was supposed to be
working).

WouldIwasShookspeared · 22/02/2022 14:35

@Lockheart

Such a beautiful young girl. Like a Barbie doll. Tall, slim, a natural beauty.

Lots of people going on about how beautiful she is. It's utterly irrelevant. It wouldn't matter if she was miss world or plain Jane.

I know. In cases like this t's always she was pretty, she was beautiful, etc I'm sure they don't mean to suggest that the more slim and pretty you are, the more of a tragedy it is but it could certainly be interpreted that way.
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