To think that it's alot harder to succeed in education / career if you are from a poorer background even if you are a bright child and the opposite of this is also true?

[ReallyGood]

Interested in what MNetters think. I was having a chat with dsis about schools. Unfortunately, because where I live DC will be going to the below average secondary school. They currently go to a primary which is in "requires improvement". Its all a bit rubbish but I have to work with what I have. we are a low income family and live on a council estate in a deprived area.

She thinks my DC can still be successful careerwise despite the rubbish schools and I said yes but it will be a hell of alot harder for them even if they were brighter than an average child from a middle class background. She thinks I'm being ridiculous and everyone has an equal opportunity in the uk no matter your background. If you have the talent and put in hard work it doesn't matter you'd be on an equal level playing field.
Do you agree with her?

I don’t think your sister is wrong, but not everyone is motivated to work hard without that encouragement and competition all around them, and not everyone is naturally talented and only gain success because they’re working hard with the right support.

Parents attitude makes a much more significant impact on children’s outcomes than school does. Children can go to wonderful schools where they receive all the support possible, but they go home to parents that talk about education and teachers with complete disrespect and do no reading or homework. Or a child could go to a school where aspirations and achievement are low and behavioural problems are rife, but if they go home to supportive parents who work with them, talk to them and have a belief that they will succeed, then they probably will.

It's not impossible for many working class people [at the very bottom of the pile it more or less is impossible, for depressing reasons] but is vastly more difficult, obviously, than if you're well off.

UK social mobility is some of the worst in the world.

looking at the results the school

• has only 11% of Ebacc
• 25% got grade 5 or above in english and maths

ive got a hard long road ahead of me..

@ReallyGood what's the 9-4%?

[quote Meadowbreeze]@ReallyGood what's the 9-4%?[/quote]
sorry - what do you mean?

I never used to think this but when I started applying for work experience placements out of university, it became clear that certain doors in certain industries just wouldn't open for me because I hadn't gone to private school/Oxbridge. I always wanted to work in publishing but had no luck at all so had to give up.

I was always top of my class so it wasn't my results or work that was an issue.

YANBU
A bright child can succeed in a less privileged school, but it's way harder for a million reasons. The child may want to work and be encouraged but they have to do more to get to the same sort of outcomes.

She thinks I'm being ridiculous and everyone has an equal opportunity in the uk no matter your background. If you have the talent and put in hard work it doesn't matter you'd be on an equal level playing field.

People who say this have their kids in private school, grammar schools usually with loads of associated tutoring for 11+, or have paid the higher house prices for the good state schools or have just lucked out and at least got a decent secondary -either way there not dealing with poor situation themsleves.

My DC state secondary school is letting them down - we are very supprtive at home and really feel if they do well it's depsite not because of the school - though there are good teachers - who are increasingly leaving - or even departments other ones seem to have given up and the constant churn of supply teachers isn't helping.

I got told on MN it was my fault for sending them there - when we moved into catchment it was actaully doing really well and had been for quite a while. Bad Estyn report they wanted results at bottom end to be doing better faster - and local poltics - head left then later covid hit all the results have dropped massively even the good students are doing much worse and at bottom end it's really bad. Everyone now tries to avoid the school meaning even poorer intake and more entrenched problems.

I'm currently quite worried at the disenchanted attitude DS is picking up from school I'm trying to fill in educational gaps - at least get him to try for the higher grades especially as he's in the top bloody sets and keep his ambition alive - even going to college which he'd been really keen on suddenly was suddenly unenthusiastic and possible beyond him - that from his school and peer group.

It doesn't mean it's impossibe to do well - DH went to a crap school with little ambition for him but went on to collge and got 5 s at A-level.

I think it also ignore social contact aspects as well.

It's not an even playing field that why social moblity has recently stalled so much. Not all poor areas have bad schools and few opportunties all you can really do is support your kids and make sure they take advantage of any opportunties that do come their way.

YANBU
I worked for a while in a school in a deprived area. It was rated "good" but from my experience certainly was not, or was at the lower end.
The very very intelligent kids still got A*s but they were few and far between. There were kids who could have got As in a better school, achieving Bs and Cs because of other factors e.g. its hard to retain good teachers in a difficult school, behaviour of other kids, attendance, opportunities.

It certainly isn't equal opportunities for all.

@Glitterygreen

I never used to think this but when I started applying for work experience placements out of university, it became clear that certain doors in certain industries just wouldn't open for me because I hadn't gone to private school/Oxbridge. I always wanted to work in publishing but had no luck at all so had to give up.

I was always top of my class so it wasn't my results or work that was an issue.

I think it worse in some sectors than others - DSis had similar experience with law.

I think DH was upset at one point because having not even considered oxbridge - he was seeing colleagues who had getting ahead faster though he got where he wanted in the end.

It has long been acknowledged which is why even when I went to university in the 80s I was offered lower conditional grades.

@Calennig Funny you should say that because I almost added Law to my post. It was one of my other preferred career choices but it's very difficult to get into if not from the right background. Even just the cost of supporting yourself while training is prohibitive.

YANBU

Of course it is more difficult if you have nowhere quiet to study, if none of your friends are keen on doing well at school, if your family need to you bring in an income to help pay the bills, if your parents can't afford the 'contribution' towards your accommodation at university, if you need to work almost full-time when studying, and so on and so on.

People may well have seen this as it's been around a while, but it sums it up perfectly.

I went to a rubbish secondary school but got very good GCSE's. It is possible for a teenager to just get their head down and work if they are bright or hard working.

I will again point out careers advice. It is absolutely no use to your kids doing well in school and than going to uni to do a degree that will mean no jobs.

I think this thread has made me re-evaluate what i'm currently doing with the kids in terms of education. I definitely need to up my game when they get to secondary schools next year.

She's totally mad!

I get that parental support makes a big difference educationally but that's just the start of it.

It gets harder when you start trying to get jobs. Competing against people who have been able to take unpaid internships in the industry, or have had family contacts to get them relevant work in the school holidays.

It really hit home to me when one of the bosses in one job I had was able to get his daughter a job in each different department of the company in each of her holidays. Gave her a massive insight into what she was good at, what she wanted to do and a ton of experience to talk about at interview. At that age, I was working as many hours as I could in a little shop so I'd be able to afford rent at uni.

@Meadowbreeze

I will again point out careers advice. It is absolutely no use to your kids doing well in school and than going to uni to do a degree that will mean no jobs.

How do i go about finding good careers advise? Is the internet and sites like prospects etc enough? I worry about this aspect too as I don't really know what type of jobs are out there and if I have heard of them some I don't really know what they actually do.

@ReallyGood

looking at the results the school

• has only 11% of Ebacc
• 25% got grade 5 or above in english and maths

ive got a hard long road ahead of me..

OP these would be similar figures to DD's school when she first went there (admittedly they are better now).

As per my previous post, she now has 2 STEM degrees and all her friendship group have higher education qualifications. It can be done.

@ReallyGood
That is good but I would ideally work backwards. Think of a job and than work backwards to figure out how they can get there. It's no use doing this now as things change. The apprenticeship I did no longer exists. In fact, it only ran for 2 years and people thought I was nuts doing it instead of A Levels. I have found this to be very helpful. Once you know, I would go as far as looking at it on linkedin. Getting your kid to contact people doing the job and asking how they did it. Nepotism is much stronger than any qualification sadly. Nep kids with good results= no job for kid with just good results.
Working on your kids confidence and speech does wonders too. Lamda is very good but so are local theatre classes. Anything that will enable them to hold a conversation. These are things that these private schools offer as a default and will be the things your kids miss out on.
There is absolutely no reason your kids won't be a part of that 20% that get the grades.
The other thing is, if you can afford to, get your kids involved in a hobby that will mean they don't have much in common with the kids that mess about. I'm sorry if this sounds snobby, but having peers with low expectations will mean your kid will too, your input will do little to stop that.
Things like scouts are usually cheap but often have kids that have involved families who will also have high expectations. Look at your local music service too.

@reallygood if theatre/lamda is not possible, stick radio 4/2 on. There are presenters there with lots of different accents that speak properly in full sentences and (often) about interesting topics. Just having this in the background is big. Get them used to seeing non fiction texts, broadsheet newspaper etc.

I always think that this cartoon sums things up perfectly digitalsynopsis.com/inspiration/privileged-kids-on-a-plate-pencilsword-toby-morris/

[quote downtonupton]I always think that this cartoon sums things up perfectly digitalsynopsis.com/inspiration/privileged-kids-on-a-plate-pencilsword-toby-morris/[/quote]
That comic is great!

[quote downtonupton]I always think that this cartoon sums things up perfectly digitalsynopsis.com/inspiration/privileged-kids-on-a-plate-pencilsword-toby-morris/[/quote]
That comic strip says it a thousand times better than I could have with just words. Love it.

I'm sorry but anyone who thinks children in poor areas have equal opportunity in terms of education and career compared to well off areas is batshit.

Just shows to me you've never experienced it and don't notice your privilege.