To think that it's alot harder to succeed in education / career if you are from a poorer background even if you are a bright child and the opposite of this is also true?

[ReallyGood]

Interested in what MNetters think. I was having a chat with dsis about schools. Unfortunately, because where I live DC will be going to the below average secondary school. They currently go to a primary which is in "requires improvement". Its all a bit rubbish but I have to work with what I have. we are a low income family and live on a council estate in a deprived area.

She thinks my DC can still be successful careerwise despite the rubbish schools and I said yes but it will be a hell of alot harder for them even if they were brighter than an average child from a middle class background. She thinks I'm being ridiculous and everyone has an equal opportunity in the uk no matter your background. If you have the talent and put in hard work it doesn't matter you'd be on an equal level playing field.
Do you agree with her?

The data just don’t support what some on this thread are saying. Outstanding schools are in affluent areas. The reason they are outstanding is because of their intake not despite it (then there is a positive feedback loop that helps them get even better). Obviously this is a generalisation and there are exceptions but not many. Children do well at school because of their background not because of their school. Yes school will have a small influence on some children but really not as much as people here are saying. I’m not talking about those at top public schools where it’s all about connections - clearly that’s different and unusual- but the for the vast majority what matters is background not school/area/class/wealth.
I’m not saying at all that’s it’s a meritocracy. The op was talking about success in education and that is very heavily influenced by home life above all else in almost all cases.

Schools have data on their students destination but this won’t tell you anything about your own dc! It’s not predictive. That’s not how statistics works.

I'm from a council upbringing and did well at school and in my work life. The school I went to was poor, in a rough area. I was lucky, though, that my parents were interested in my education and had teachers that nurtured bright kids.

However, as PP have said, it's a mix of how we turned out. Some of us are successful, some were grandparents at 32, some never worked, some have been in & out of prison.

They love reading that's a huge plus right there.

You don't need to constantly take them to museums.

You don't need to hover over their work.
What you do need is an honest appraisal of their ability right now, their grasp of English and maths.
Make sure that's on track.
Don't let them fall behind.
Help them learn how to learn.

Glance at the curriculum each year and make sure they know some of it.

@Debroglie

Schools have data on their students destination but this won’t tell you anything about your own dc! It’s not predictive. That’s not how statistics works.

Of course it won't. But it will tell me if the majority of kids in this school have aspirations of going to university etc and are interested in education or not.

It is possible but harder. Some people are just born with a high IQ and also have parents putting a lot of effort into the children, teaching times times, hearing their reading every day, reading to them every day at home. Also some parents find by 11+ better schools or put the children in for scholarships at private schools or pick a state boarding school and that kind of thing. Others move into a studio flat in a much better area for the schooling. Some move continents to get better schools (which is the case of plenty of boys in my sons' old private day school)

YANBU. Many people “buy in” to a system that works if they afford it. Case in point; our esteemed PM: a man not of great intellect but who learnt a bit of Latin and has a posh accent and conned a nation into thinking that made him one of Britain’s great minds.

Why does it matter to you if the majority have high aspirations or are interested in education?

She’s just trying to cheer you up.

If she believed everyone gets an equal chance, she wouldn’t be paying for private school.

You are right that is is harder for children in worse schools, but with hard work and a little help at home, your DSIS is right that they can still be successful.

With dcs in secondary schools now, I realise that what you do at home matters more. My bright dc2 would coast along quite happily doing the minimum possible and as long as he’s not getting into trouble, school doesn’t seem to be concerned.
I buy him textbooks and he has a laptop but I don’t spend much more on his actual education though I do make sure he works hard for tests, does his homework well and reads.
I take them out during school holidays, not every weekend. They learn a lot from watching documentaries and tv and knowing what’s going on in the world as well.

@Debroglie

Why does it matter to you if the majority have high aspirations or are interested in education?

Peer groups can have a massive influence on a DC's schooling so I can see why OP is interested in this – of course you are right that averages and statistics don't tell you anything about your own child's chances, but being surrounded by friends who want the same as you do can make a difference.

DD went to a fairly poor secondary modern but got in with a friendship group who mostly wanted to go on to university, and did. They encouraged each other and studied together and I'm quite sure it helped. From a school where the average A level grade was between a D and an E, one is doing medicine, 2 (including DD) have done very academic Masters and the rest are in good jobs after getting a first degree.

I don’t agree with her. My experience is that bright kids who find themselves at bad schools have to devote a lot of headspace to fitting in and hiding their abilities to avoid being bullied. The culture is completely different to private schools, where academic achievements are celebrated and the kids there all understand that they are expected to gain certain grades.

It’s this difference in culture that makes it difficult for a bright kid to succeed in a bad school, it’s not lack of ability or even lack of facilities but they are having to survive in an environment where knowing the answers isn’t very cool- they have to choose whether to fit in with peers or be a high achiever.

I would just ask her why in that case, she is spending an absolute fortune putting her kids through private school if it makes no difference. She’s talking through her arse and she knows it. Honestly that level of outright dishonesty and hypocrisy makes me angry.

It’s possible to succeed, but it’s much much harder, speaking from personal experience, the quality of my education was appalling (give or take a couple of good teachers). I would have 50 minute chemistry lessons where the teacher would constantly arrive 15-20 minutes late then spend the rest of the lesson making us read from text books and answer the question in there, that went on for two years during my GCSEs. Parents couldn’t afford tutoring so I had to teach myself the subject.

The teaching overall was very poor, lots of teachers who couldn’t be bothered, lots hardly there most of the time because they were off sick, newly qualified teachers who didn’t know what they were doing and couldn’t handle the kids playing up, teachers who couldn’t be arsed any more and just wanted to retire, classes were constantly disrupted by kids who didn’t want to be there. I did well in my GCSEs (best in the year), but nothing outstanding, I know I could have got much higher grades if I went to a better school. I have been moderately successful, have a masters degree, senior position in the NHS, but I feel like I could have achieved so much more if I went to a better school.

I think I've found the opposite. I'm from a poor family, first to uni (parents didn't agree with it at all), we never had money for anything at home, but I have done very well in my career. The lack of money and parental support has definitely driven me to be completely independent and financially stable by myself.

I went to a dire urban London school, but was in the top stream for Years 10 and 11. I would say the #1 difference between the children I mixed with in Years 7-9 vs Years 10-11 was family background/involvement. Most of the high achievers were from backgrounds where the parents had good jobs (to my young eyes as these kids always had loads of pocket money, unlike me) and the parents were more involved at every step (they facilitated study sessions in their homes, tutored their kids, met with the teachers more etc).

My old school has become much better, but not necessarily because of staff. The area is now gentrified, more middle class parents are sending their kids locally, where as before, these parents would have moved heaven and earth to get their kids into the 'better' schools across the borough (but inflated house prices have made this near impossible for many). This means my old school looks more white. White students were a minority when I went there.

My advice is to be very present and involved. I have the same issue as you, because my local schools are dire (we aren't in London but are in the SE). We can probably afford Private, so we have the 'easy' way out if needed. Honestly, there is a lot of good that can come from any school, but wherever they go, you need to be present along the way. Many of my peers from Year 11 went on to have excellent careers, but their GCSE grades and parental guidance meant they went to excellent sixth forms.

I have always said education starts in the home before they even enter a school.

@BurnDownTheDiscoHangTheDJ

YANBU. Many people “buy in” to a system that works if they afford it. Case in point; our esteemed PM: a man not of great intellect but who learnt a bit of Latin and has a posh accent and conned a nation into thinking that made him one of Britain’s great minds.

I like you. You're the only one I've seen think Boris isn't intelligent apart from me. Thank god someone else sees the truth.

I agree with you OP. I think in most cases people can improve their situation with hard work, but it is much harder going to a school with larger classes and below average teaching/behaviour problems - though private schools can have below average teaching too.

It is possible to improve their chances by helping your kids and encouraging them to work hard, develop self discipline, financial responsibility and considering which jobs are suitable for them as individuals (not counting out vocational/non graduate routes).

@AllOfUsAreDead - you can count me in on the 'Boris is educated but utterly unintelligent' front. Being able to speak Latin is hardly a quantifier for common sense (although I presume he thinks he has 'upper class' sense instead).

Chances are with input from you your DC will succeed. However the school experience can be much more of an endurance test. It is hard always being top of the class and having no peers at an equivalent level. Third level education may come as a surprise.

She's incorrect. However, I grew up in a similar situation and my home was always filled with books, my mum always banged on about education and my peers were really irrelevant when it came to their low aspirations. Even my sister who was very dyslexic was pushed into trades by my mother instead of childcare that the school insisted on. Not bashing childcare but my sister now earns much more than me and I was very academic.

There are a lot of well off kids who come from homes where education really isn't that important. This becomes less relevant because they go to school where their peers are/the school cares about grades. You'd be surprised how many of the posh public school kids don't particularly care because they have jobs lined up. They do well because of schools they go to, but their attitude stinks.

The best thing you can do is have high aspirations for them at home, regardless of their ability. Do lots of research on post 16 options, don't rely on schools career advice as it is woeful 98% of the time.

@tillytopper I agree with you. I think it's very very hard to have a balance. I've noticed parents who do too much, spoil their kids. And I don't mean materially. I mean these kids are spoiled. They have no innate instinct to fight for something, to research and to carry on. They are so incredibly fragile to any defeat.
I think having supportive parents but going to an 'average' school is a good mix.