To think that it's alot harder to succeed in education / career if you are from a poorer background even if you are a bright child and the opposite of this is also true?

[ReallyGood]

Interested in what MNetters think. I was having a chat with dsis about schools. Unfortunately, because where I live DC will be going to the below average secondary school. They currently go to a primary which is in "requires improvement". Its all a bit rubbish but I have to work with what I have. we are a low income family and live on a council estate in a deprived area.

She thinks my DC can still be successful careerwise despite the rubbish schools and I said yes but it will be a hell of alot harder for them even if they were brighter than an average child from a middle class background. She thinks I'm being ridiculous and everyone has an equal opportunity in the uk no matter your background. If you have the talent and put in hard work it doesn't matter you'd be on an equal level playing field.
Do you agree with her?

That is what the evidence shows.

It's not a matter of opinion, it's fact.

Op your influence and priorities Will be the biggest influence on your child.

Does your DC have any Sen? What are they like academically?

If you can get tutors you will be paying for targeted bespoke help for your DC which may be better than all other schools!
Tutor, good one is like a bespoke private education.
Agree with others as long as you expose them to culture etc they will be fine and you believe in education etc.

I went to a bog standard comp where I received no encouragement at all and did ok despite a shit degree, no-one in my family had been to uni so no one could offer sensible advice there. I was amazed that people I worked with had been to private school and better universities and were at the same level as me, I always felt a resentment that if I’d had their start in life I’d have got further in my career whereas they seemed content and lacked ambition. I know a lot of people who’ve done very well despite shit schools but it tends to be the people who have a bit of a spark, whereas as very mediocre people with a good start get to the same level without really trying. It’s all a bit shit really!

Dame of dilemma I'd include dessimation of Gramma into your list.
In ye olde days it was done far more in house so teachers would help to encourage those with a shot.
Now it's pretty much solely down to the parents And that's cutting off DC with no parents backing immediately.

OP
YOU are the most important feature in your child's life. It sounds a bit like you are assuming a bleak future for your kids?

There are loads that you can do, for free.
Encourage them to not only read, but to think, and have opinions
Set expectations for them- that they will engage with education and do their best

They can get involved in sport/ other clubs- often for free

Teens who have jobs are often way more confident and self assured than those who don't.

@ReallyGood

Interested in what MNetters think. I was having a chat with dsis about schools. Unfortunately, because where I live DC will be going to the below average secondary school. They currently go to a primary which is in "requires improvement". Its all a bit rubbish but I have to work with what I have. we are a low income family and live on a council estate in a deprived area.

She thinks my DC can still be successful careerwise despite the rubbish schools and I said yes but it will be a hell of alot harder for them even if they were brighter than an average child from a middle class background. She thinks I'm being ridiculous and everyone has an equal opportunity in the uk no matter your background. If you have the talent and put in hard work it doesn't matter you'd be on an equal level playing field.
Do you agree with her?

Of course she’s wrong. As the research shows time and time again.

And I know people will have anecdotes about those who made it regardless and vice versa. But on the whole, on average it doesn’t work that way.

And I speak as someone who came from a poor background, ended up in foster care, was a care leaver who actually ended up doing pretty damn well. So I’m an exception but I know that.

I also know it was down to luck, state help and a bit of me. Not all me.

@formalineadeline

That is what the evidence shows.

It's not a matter of opinion, it's fact.

👏👏👏

If you look at it from a public general statistics, she is wrong.

If you look at it from an individual perspective, she is correct. My kids have gone under average schools. One has done well, the other has excelled and on the path to a top career.

If she thinks that is true, why did she send them to private school?

Think she is just trying to be supportive and hopeful that they can still do well in below average schools. Realistically, you are right, they will struggle more, but it's not impossible. They'll just have to work harder, and I'm not meaning studying to be honest there. Kids from richer families don't tend to have to work through uni, they can just focus on studying. Whereas poorer kids have to work usually as well as studying, so it's definitely harder for them.

You say you live in a low income family on a council estate in a deprived area whereas she lives in a posh bubble & is sending her children to private school.
Why is there such a difference between you?

Iggly so true.
Everyone I know who did well despite having to overcome hurdles others didn't acknowledge the roll of the dice they got. Some of it their character, but also some of it the doors that were opened by timing or a kind person or... Whatever.
Whereas, so many (though not all) of the privelaged people I know think it was all down to them and if others haven't made it they just weren't trying hard enough. They often don't recognise their own advantages. Sometimes that's genuine naivety as they just don't know how the other half live. Sometimes it's nasty entitled arrogance.

I said this in the other similar post but a lot depends on how much the parents value education. You can send a child to an OFSTED outstanding school and they can still fail if they aren’t supported at home. If their parents don’t read with them, make sure they do homework, make sure they’re revising for tests, enriching their lives at the weekend with activities (and not always ones that cost) then the child will be far more likely to fail. A lot just does boil down to how much the parents care about their child, teachers can only do so much.

I do think it’s more situational than a norm

My own situation was I grew up on a rough council estate, brought up by a single mother. The estate was split into two when it came to catchment areas for high schools and fortunately I lived in the side that went to the decent high school

Passed exams with good grades, not great but still managed to get into a Russell Group uni. Uni fees paid for and got full maintenance loan. Worked part time and every uni holiday to help support myself (so didn’t have the time or means to do things that may have helped a future career like an internship)

Left uni and started in a call centre. Worked my ass off to work my way up and through a lot of effort and being in right place at right time I now in a very well paid job in the City (London).

My only regret (if you can call it that) is that if I came from a better off background my career would be where it is now 10 years ago. So it does irk me slightly when I see these younger ones having the means to move to London straight from uni, work for free in internships etc during uni holidays. There is no way I could have afforded to do that, which is why my career path has been a lot longer than others.

Saying that though I am bloody proud of where I come from and what I have made of my life when others may have written it off based on where I grew up

Whereas poorer kids have to work usually as well as studying, so it's definitely harder for them.

I have friends from all different backgrounds including a few with exceptionally wealthy families and we all worked during uni. I actually don’t know anyone who didn’t work PT at uni.

so many things to really think about.

I totally understand where she is coming from. However, my points being:

• kids need to be more headstrong and very determined to keep their heads down and focus on work whilst kids are disruptive at school, not being bullied for being a 'swot' . They're kids at the end of the day at it sure as hell looks more fun messing around and having 'fun' with the crowd who don't care. in private / MC schools there's less of this.

• my local secondary school spend a lot of money on a pathway for kids who aren't academic and / or aren't interested in school so they do woodwork etc. If you're bright I presume the school is just glad you aren't being disruptive and you won't get really noticed / nurtured.

• my kids love reading - have done from a young age, I do take them to museums, galleries etc BUT sometimes I don't have the time or energy to do it. I have 2 jobs and sometimes I need to work on the weekends too and I don't have time for the basics for myself let alone visiting museums. If I worked pt. I'm sure things would be very different.

• Their friends families are similar working class backgrounds - parents are cleaners/ admin/ retail/ plumbers / shopkeeper etc. They aren't surrounded by people who have high flying jobs so not sure what is out there in terms of careers.

I honesty do care about my children's education and I do try and be involved in their school work as much as I can but I don't think I am being negative by acknowledging the fact that they will probably have to work very hard and be fighters to become successful career wise.

YANBU, I think back to GCSEs/A-levels where there was people from wealthy backgrounds who were given allowances by their parents so that they could put all their attention into studies, and then them from low income who are oils work multiple hours to be able to afford the bus etc.
some people being handed a car and driving lessons on a plate, some people paying themselves.
Uni too.
while it's not impossible to succeed from a poorer background it's definitely much harder.

Your outlook seems realistic to me op. Your sisters not so much. If avoid this topic with her as it would irk me greatly to be diagnosed like this by someone who is actively avoiding this situation with her own kids and simultaneously telling me its fine for mine.
I hope she trying to be encouraging and not just deliberately shutting you down. Sadly she has opened some distance between you by not acknowledging your concerns. So it becomes something you can't discuss with her, either just as a sounding board, or support or advice etc.

@MenopauseSucks

You say you live in a low income family on a council estate in a deprived area whereas she lives in a posh bubble & is sending her children to private school. Why is there such a difference between you?

dsis is a healthcare professional so has done well for herself. She isn't a ridiculously high earner but decent enough. However, her DH is very wealthy. He owned several properties and in his early 20s when he met her. She still works though only 2 days a week because she enjoys it and doesn't need to. They live in the same place as me but in the affluent area with outstanding primary schools and one of the top private schools in the region.

We don't all make it if you're from poorer backgrounds.

I work in an indie but went to a failing school myself and have taught in tough comps previously. I would say supportive parents, having good school friends as positive role models and then children having teachers who will push them regardless of what else is going on in the classroom will help a child to succeed.

However, even having all of these elements will not necessarily enable a young person to achieve their potential at school if there is an anti-education culture at the school from the majority of other children and their parents. Failing schools usually have a large proportion of disaffected students and their families so those children who want to do well really are swimming against the tide.

Put an average child in a failing school and they will probably not do well, the same child in an outstanding school will probably surpass expectation. It isn’t rocket science.

is there somewhere where you can find out the outcomes from particular schools. How many kids went on to university / further education etc Is there any available data on this?

kids need to be more headstrong and very determined to keep their heads down and focus on work whilst kids are disruptive at school, not being bullied for being a 'swot
Indeed, but that build their resilience and prepares them better to real life.

If you're bright I presume the school is just glad you aren't being disruptive and you won't get really noticed / nurtured
That wasn't the case with my kids. Teachers did enjoy working with the brightest keen learners. Yes, they did have some quiet times when they finished their work early and had nothing to do but again, it was teaching them to deal with boredom and patience. It didn't impact on their ability to score very high on their results.

I went to a failing school where I was bullied by pupils AND teachers for being clever, am from a very poor background with semi-literate parents who weren’t able to help with homework and tried to discourage university and make me leave school at 15, and I have four degrees, two from Oxbridge. The difference is that there were scholarships and grants available for university. I never paid a penny for my education. I would never have done it on student loans.

I still think private schools are morally indefensible. The best thing you can do, OP, is be supportive of your children’s education, infirm yourself about subject choices and university options and courses. Expose them to a wide variety of people doing different things. I’d never met anyone other than my browbeaten , uninterested teachers who’s been to university before I went myself.

Sartre's

Lot's of dp care for their Dc but don't feel education is important or want to support them, maybe they think they don't needs to support them? Because there the school job And many won't simply know how to support them.

@ReallyGood

is there somewhere where you can find out the outcomes from particular schools. How many kids went on to university / further education etc Is there any available data on this?

On the Government website for comparing school data it lists the percentage of pupils in education for two terms after leaving at 18. Last year is 2017 though, and it doesn't specify what that education is.

No wish and where grammar school came in.