To think that it's alot harder to succeed in education / career if you are from a poorer background even if you are a bright child and the opposite of this is also true?

[ReallyGood]

Interested in what MNetters think. I was having a chat with dsis about schools. Unfortunately, because where I live DC will be going to the below average secondary school. They currently go to a primary which is in "requires improvement". Its all a bit rubbish but I have to work with what I have. we are a low income family and live on a council estate in a deprived area.

She thinks my DC can still be successful careerwise despite the rubbish schools and I said yes but it will be a hell of alot harder for them even if they were brighter than an average child from a middle class background. She thinks I'm being ridiculous and everyone has an equal opportunity in the uk no matter your background. If you have the talent and put in hard work it doesn't matter you'd be on an equal level playing field.
Do you agree with her?

She's delusional!

Every circumstance makes a difference. The one thing that has most influence is parental attitude to education.

Do you read to your DCs, sit with them and encourage them to do their home work, work on school projects together. Do you have membership of the local library and choose them a new book to read every week? When they are older, encourage their interests etc.

Quality of teaching and expectations do make a difference but plenty of people succeed regardless of background.

Statistically, you’re quite right. Some have far more obstacles to overcome than others.

Maybe she means it in the sense that “everyone is in with a shot” which is also true, and a supportive sentiment?

For context she is very well off so I don't know if she is just in her own posh bubble or trying to make me not feel bad about my situation. She is private schooling all her children. They have had a completely different upbringing to mine.

A bit of both, in your situation I would enrol my dc into a weekly private tutorial class. Get the tutor to carry out an assessment to find out the gaps (there will be from lockdown). Then you know where they need to catch up.

Take them out to museums, galleries, theatres and generally expand their horizons. Encourage your kids to read widely and you should research the concept of cultural capital.

My parents had friends from a wide background but all their kids went to university. I grew up knowing that's what was expected and worked my arse off to get there. So with encouragement & investment from you, your kids will be half way there.

Unfortunately there's no equal opportunities when it comes to education. Plenty of bright kids in poorer areas don't get half the recognition that kids not as bright from nicer areas do. Schools don't have the resources or time, extra curricular activities.

We grew up on a council estate at a school with special measures and my brothers a doctor and sister is a teacher.

But I also know a lot of people who left school at 16 (me included) and never continued education.

I'm doing very well considering but I have a lot of friends who have never worked since and still live in those deprived areas, or have flitted between 0 hour contracts.

I think it's harder to get out of the environment you grew up in rather than it being specifically about education.

What's your educational background OP and are you a SAHM? Can you upgrade your skills/education to get a better paying job? This will give you a chance to move out to a better area with better schools.

YANBU. DD's primary school was academised a while ago, another local school was actually closed after a long time in special measures. All local schools are either outstanding or in special measures/needs improvement, which one a child goes to obviously depends on which part of town they live in. There hasn't been any significant effort to increase staff numbers since the other school closed, other schools have just been expected to absorb their pupils. The building has just been empty.

It is definitely easier to succeed in a supportive environment.. parents, schools and friends. Of course this could happen on council estates etc, but money and space make it even easier.

Thats why universities have those widening access protocols and lower grade boundaries... its acknowledging that some people have had a harder path.

I think being better educated/higher training gives you a chance to get out of the deprived area you grew up in. This is what I did, in my hometown there's a massive culture of underachievement. People would discourage you from wanting to do better, so some kids never have a chance. The anti work/education ethic in my home town is too strong.

She's underestimating the power of having people within the family already in high paid jobs and industries and the networks and knowledge that brings. My parents have always worked ridiculously hard but in low paid jobs, I wanted to go to university but had no idea where to start, a lot of careers felt unobtainable as no one in my circle of family/neighbours etc did them and they seemed out of reach. There's also the safety net of family money, it's easier to risk going for amazing careers or doing something you love when you know if it doesn't work out you will always have somewhere to live and food to eat; a luxury many don't have. Extra circulars count for a lot as well, everyone I was at uni with who had a sport scholarship for example was from a private school (and could have afforded fees and living costs anyway), and also the confidence it builds, the ways it helps support applications to unis and jobs etc. There is also a snobbery with education providers. I applied for a bursary to do a masters it was meant for people from backgrounds who wouldn't normally pursue this level education. The person who got awarded it was quite open that it was because their parents couldn't afford to support a second sibling at university (I'd had no support as my parents couldn't afford it)- the reality is they did their undergraduate at Oxford and so the uni probably wanted to secure them coming for their stats. I couldn't go then, which sucked but things have worked out fine since.

TLDR- she is incorrect.

@Alrightqueenie

I think being better educated/higher training gives you a chance to get out of the deprived area you grew up in. This is what I did, in my hometown there's a massive culture of underachievement. People would discourage you from wanting to do better, so some kids never have a chance. The anti work/education ethic in my home town is too strong.

Yes I agree, I lost a lot of 'friends' because even though I was the same person and didn't even mention it unless asked, apparently I thought I was better than everyone else because I went to uni. It was heartbreaking at the time, but I'm proud of myself without guilt now.

You are the greatest factor in determining how successful your children are with respect to education.
A child at a crap school in a crap area with a supportive mother has much better chances than a child at a brilliant school in a naice area but with no support at home.

I grew up on a council estate and I’m the only one from my class at primary school who went to university.

It is a lot harder. I never any paid for after school clubs as a child (apart from Brownies which was 20p) or was taken anywhere by my parents apart from the occasional trip to the seaside. I can’t remember us being taken anywhere during the school holidays.

At some point during secondary school everyone seems to lose their ambition. They weren’t naughty or disruptive kids. There parents had left school at 16 and done fine so they did. Except that we all lived in council houses (which are now v difficult to get) and there dads worked in factory’s (which have all now closed down).

My parents didn’t want to come to parents evenings as they knew everything would be ‘fine’ and never pushed/encouraged me.

A child’s parents make the biggest difference tk their educational attainment. Engaged parents from a poor socioeconomic background have the potential to raise far more successful children than rich people who take no real interest.
As with everything in life it’s to blame everyone else, the government, the neighbours, the cat. But ultimately parents are mostly responsible for what happens to their children and how far hey go in life. I’m sure lots of people will be along shortly to list reasons for why parents can’t do it. But they’re mostly excuses. If we really dig deep and look at, they’re mostly excuses.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4486458-Why-do-people-from-poorer-backgrounds-have-low-aspirations?msgid=115261963

From a couple of days ago. 759 posts and counting …

Your friend is naive, and factually wrong.

@Debroglie but you accept that a supportive parent in each scenario = the middle class/ better school/ better area child is likely to do better, no? That's what OP is debating here.

I've worked in both private schools and schools in very deprived areas and I completely agree with you it's like the culmination of hundreds of tiny advantages which the people experiencing them may not even notice. Smaller class sizes, expert teaching in the foundation subjects (a huge advantage if your skills lie in music or languages as opposed to maths and English), better sports equipment and facilities and many more.

I read an article about the GB cycling team and how the guy in charge understood the need for making hundreds of tiny adjustments which on their own wouldn't make much difference but altogether lead to huge successes for the cycling team and I think that's a good analogy for the education system for poorer and richer kids.

@sst1234

A child’s parents make the biggest difference tk their educational attainment. Engaged parents from a poor socioeconomic background have the potential to raise far more successful children than rich people who take no real interest. As with everything in life it’s to blame everyone else, the government, the neighbours, the cat. But ultimately parents are mostly responsible for what happens to their children and how far hey go in life. I’m sure lots of people will be along shortly to list reasons for why parents can’t do it. But they’re mostly excuses. If we really dig deep and look at, they’re mostly excuses.

That's nice, if educational attainment is the only factor in being successful.

You can still do a lot OP. And keep in with your dsis, when your dc need work experience utilize her contacts!

@MintJulia

Every circumstance makes a difference. The one thing that has most influence is parental attitude to education.

Do you read to your DCs, sit with them and encourage them to do their home work, work on school projects together. Do you have membership of the local library and choose them a new book to read every week? When they are older, encourage their interests etc.

Quality of teaching and expectations do make a difference but plenty of people succeed regardless of background.

If you look at the people in the upper echelons of power in the U.K. it's clear to me that the biggest factor isn't parental influence on the child.

Your own situation shows it isn't always true, one sister private schooling children and the other in much poorer circumstances. Same upbringing?

sst1234 totally agree with you.
I work at an outstanding comp in a leafy suburb. Most of our students are from reasonably wealthy backgrounds because the catchment is expensive to live in. Some of our students are from very rich families but will fail their exams because they get no support from home and education is not valued in their family.
My own dc are much less materially well off than those children but are doing brilliantly at school because that’s part of our family’s value system. We expect them to behave, do as the teachers ask, work hard etc. None of that costs anything but time and effort in the early years (I do realise that being able to provide that is a privilege in itself but it’s not a financial one)

@Ogel

Educational attainment is the most important indicator. Generally speaking, parents who take an interest in their child’s education are aspirational on their children’s behalf. They take other steps to make sure that the children will go on to be more successful than they were.