To think employers will have to get used to treating staff better?

[Monopolyiscrap]

In my field like many, there is a shortage of experienced staff. Suddenly the shit employers are all complaining about how they can not get any staff. In a Facebook group for people who do my work, you often get employers posting asking people to advise why they are getting no responses to their job advert. When you look, it is usually because they are being unrealistic in what they are expecting for the money. But they generally do not like being told that.

Good employers are still attracting staff. I got my current job as a friend who was working at the company and told me they were a great employer, and the salary is competitive. Managers treat people well and go out of their way to praise people and offer training and support. Meanwhile, the shit employer I worked for five years ago can't find anyone.

Employers are going to have to get used to treating staff better. AIBU?

The problem with social care is that it's a 'vocation' - you're supposed to accept the shit pay and conditions because you're supposed to be in it for the job, not the money, and it's seen as a low skilled job that anyone can do.

Other vocations include "politician" ...

Yes, now that we do not have unlimited immigration from the EU, employers will have to pay and treat staff fairly.

But then society doesn't want to pay higher taxes, nor lose their inheritance on care fees, and in any discussion about it, many will claim they'll be off to Dignitas anyway should it happen to them so it won't affect them.

I wonder if there's a market for bulk bookings at Dignitas ? Off one, get one free sort of thing. Coach party discounts.

I think I'm getting the hang of post-Brexit opportunities. As the Rolling Stones noted: you can't always get what you want. But you might just get what you need ....

@ILoveAllRainbowsx

Yes, now that we do not have unlimited immigration from the EU, employers will have to pay and treat staff fairly.

very s..l..o..w..l..y..

That's not going to happen

Instead you will get (or rather have gotten) relaxed immigration requirements for whichever industry whinged loud enough last month. Basically we're still in the EU as far as other EU citizens are concerned. It's just UK citizens that can't move freely for labour.

What a nasty goady post.

DH and I run a niche bespoke business, and have got an amazing team of staff some of whom have been here 20+ years. We can't train people on the job because funnily enough, people don't want mistakes made on their high end products. We need skilled reliable and professional craftsmen... and they're like gold dust. Most applicants we get nowadays aren't from the UK and have only worked in cheap mass production factory equivalents where quantity is more important than quality.

We pay good wages, we've got a well stocked kitchen with tea/coffee/nespresso, they get their equipment provided at great expense which is almost unheard of in the trade. We pay tea breaks and lunch breaks. And yet we need to be better? ODFO.

@BoodleBug51 why can't you train people? Most bespoke crafts firms used to have apprentices that they did train up. If you refuse to, then I suspect you will always struggle.

*allDGRossetti Tue 22-Feb-22 12:43:05
ILoveAllRainbowsx

Yes, now that we do not have unlimited immigration from the EU, employers will have to pay and treat staff fairly.

very s..l..o..w..l..y..

That's not going to happen

Instead you will get (or rather have gotten) relaxed immigration requirements for whichever industry whinged loud enough last month. Basically we're still in the EU as far as other EU citizens are concerned. It's just UK citizens that can't move freely for labour.*

very s..l..o..w..l..y.

Well, if people don't want that to happen then they can vote for another party at the next election. It's called democracy. We could not vote on who immigrated to the UK when we were in the EU.

@BoodleBug51

What a nasty goady post.

DH and I run a niche bespoke business, and have got an amazing team of staff some of whom have been here 20+ years. We can't train people on the job because funnily enough, people don't want mistakes made on their high end products. We need skilled reliable and professional craftsmen... and they're like gold dust. Most applicants we get nowadays aren't from the UK and have only worked in cheap mass production factory equivalents where quantity is more important than quality.

We pay good wages, we've got a well stocked kitchen with tea/coffee/nespresso, they get their equipment provided at great expense which is almost unheard of in the trade. We pay tea breaks and lunch breaks. And yet we need to be better? ODFO.

So how has recruitment the past 20+ years been ?

How many vacancies a year do you have, how many ads do you place, how many people do you interview and of those how many get placed ?

Also boodlebugs no one is saying you need to be better. If you can recruit staff with what you do then fine. If not tough.

Well, if people don't want that to happen then they can vote for another party at the next election.

People will get what they damn well get. I would have thought that message would have entered even the thickest of skulls by now.

Last election people "voted" for a competent government. And that didn't happen. And it's hardly a complex requirement really.

I work in medical device and technology innovation which involves universities, the private sector and the NHS and we've never seen skills shortages like we're seeing today. We can't recruit anywhere near the required number of researchers, scientists, engineers, medics etc, and this is being seen across my industry and others.
You could argue that rising wages are a silver lining but that's a short-sighted view. Skills shortages are weighing on productivity which means businesses won't grow to their potential and jobs won't be created in the numbers, or the quality, they used to be. If a company has vacancies it can’t fill then it can’t do everything it wants to do. People seem to be overlook this aspect when presenting “a million vacancies” as a good thing.

Another key point is that wage rises caused by shortages are nowhere near as positive for the economy as wage rises driven by increased productivity and profit. Of course if you engineer a shortage of something then it’s going to rise in value, but a shortage by its nature represents inefficiency and lost potential. The inconsistent wage growth we’re seeing across the economy will therefore have a deleterious, uneven impact on inflation. Wage growth is simply not keeping up with inflation for the majority of workers and it’s going to be getting worse for a good while before it gets better.

Similar situations are being seen across various developed countries but the sheer number of unfilled vacancies in the UK economy, coupled with the current trajectory of inflation (with another large hike due post-April) coupled with logistics issues with import and export all represent a unique storm. And yes, implementing Brexit without a plan has made this all so much worse than it needed to be. If anyone thinks Brexit is helping ANY of this then I’d love to hear how.

@Ifailed

The IT industry generally (my niche) has been bleating about a "skills shortage" for decades.

I agree. A few years ago I was working for a major UK employer who imposed a strict salary cap on jobs (by grades). The end result was hiring 100s of contract staff on 3 times the cost of normal staff within the IT department.
These people were capable but had no idea of how the company worked, or what went on at the front line and were far less efficient than the existing people. Still senior management wouldn't budge as they had made a 'promise' to share holders to not increase wages.
When the inevitable redundancies came, most people walked out with a nice pay off into a better paid, less stressful new job, yet still the company would not change its ways.

My husband left an IT role in education after being there for 10 years. There were 3 people doing his same role when he started and then by year 5 he was on his own doing the same amount of work as 3 people. Complete recruitment and pay freeze and no increase in pay bands. Constant promise of re grading his role that never happened. Final straw was when they cut annual leave and rewrote job titles and roles so that people had to sign new contracts and were forced to drop out of very generous pension scheme and go into a much poorer scheme (many put up with the poor pay because of the pension and annual leave) Two contractors are now doing his job on £500 a day rates and doing it very badly it seems! Makes zero sense, they have pretty much lost all their long term loyal knowledgeable staff

@BoodleBug51

What a nasty goady post.

DH and I run a niche bespoke business, and have got an amazing team of staff some of whom have been here 20+ years. We can't train people on the job because funnily enough, people don't want mistakes made on their high end products. We need skilled reliable and professional craftsmen... and they're like gold dust. Most applicants we get nowadays aren't from the UK and have only worked in cheap mass production factory equivalents where quantity is more important than quality.

We pay good wages, we've got a well stocked kitchen with tea/coffee/nespresso, they get their equipment provided at great expense which is almost unheard of in the trade. We pay tea breaks and lunch breaks. And yet we need to be better? ODFO.

This attitude pretty much sums up the attitude of employers imo. It's nasty and goady for workers to want better pay and conditions for the work that they do to support the business they work for, you may feel you're a good employer and that may well be true, that doesn't mean that every employer is, or that it's nasty and goady to discuss bad employers (in a general way) and what effect the shortfall of workers and skills in the workforce is having on changing that.

@MaryMcCarthy we have been told during the past years that the economy has done well, while in real terms lots of wages have been falling. And it is not just about wages, but about employers treating you decently.
I care about my job, what am I paid and how am I treated. I don't really care if productivity is down or up. Too many times when the economy is booming, it simply means rich people make lots of money.

@DGRossetti

Well, if people don't want that to happen then they can vote for another party at the next election.

People will get what they damn well get. I would have thought that message would have entered even the thickest of skulls by now.

Last election people "voted" for a competent government. And that didn't happen. And it's hardly a complex requirement really.

So why don't you become an MP instead of criticising the people who are at least prepared to do it and put up with abuse and death threats?

@SweetFelicityArkright I agree. It is not nasty or goady for employees to get the best deal they can. And specialist crafts always had apprentices in the past. It is how this sector used to work before they could easily recruit people from abroad.

@ILoveAllRainbowsx in what universes are we not allowed to criticise MPs unless we are prepared to become an MP?
There are decent MPs. But the ones who currently have power are incompetent and corrupt. Any decent conservative MPs have been expelled from the party or sidelined.

So why don't you become an MP instead of criticising the people who are at least prepared to do it and put up with abuse and death threats?

Because I don't particularly want any power over my fellow subjects. And I am very wary of those that do.

I also have a rather peculiar expectation of those that are elected.

[quote Monopolyiscrap]@ILoveAllRainbowsx in what universes are we not allowed to criticise MPs unless we are prepared to become an MP?
There are decent MPs. But the ones who currently have power are incompetent and corrupt. Any decent conservative MPs have been expelled from the party or sidelined.[/quote]
Of course you can criticize MP's but the person I was replying to was saying that there is no point in voting because it doesn't change anything. In that case she should change the system.

The reason that all the decent conservative MP's have been pushed out is because the only way that AT&t conservative party felt it was going to win a majority was to have Boris as prime minister.

I can't stand Boris Johnson but if that's what people want then that is what we get.

I couldn't stand him as London mayor and I was horrified when he became the party leader.

Boris Johnson should be in prison. Not our Prime Minister.

@DGRossetti

So why don't you become an MP instead of criticising the people who are at least prepared to do it and put up with abuse and death threats?

Because I don't particularly want any power over my fellow subjects. And I am very wary of those that do.

I also have a rather peculiar expectation of those that are elected.

Oh so that is why you want to be in the EU where we can't vote for anything.

In that case I can understand why you were a remainer but I want to be able to vote for what happens in the UK.

@stuntbubbles

I’d love for this to be true. Some recent “perks” I’ve seen listed on job adverts:

Pension (er, you mean the mandatory minimum pension scheme?)
Statutory holiday allowance
Free fruit bowl in the office
Half a day off on your birthday (just half, mind)
1 day a week WFH! (Treat yoself)
Wine Friday with colleagues (would rather die)
Newly decorated London office (???)

Yet the responsibilities are vast and the salary pathetic. Just pay people properly so they can afford their own manky bananas, offer decent holiday, and flexi as standard FFS.

But with a cost of living crisis, energy crisis, housing crisis, climate crisis, pick your own crisis, impending war, inflation, etc, I think it’s going to go the way of employer’s choice and be grateful for your free bruised fruit and £22k for a senior role that was £22k 15 years ago.

Do you work in law by any chance? That list is almost verbatim what I see on law firms websites haha. I know exactly what you mean.

@Monopolyiscrap

Boris Johnson should be in prison. Not our Prime Minister.

Totally agree with this

I have worked for two different lawyers, never again. They were by a long shot the very worst employers I have ever had.

Democracy means we can and should criticise MPs.