To think employers will have to get used to treating staff better?

[Monopolyiscrap]

In my field like many, there is a shortage of experienced staff. Suddenly the shit employers are all complaining about how they can not get any staff. In a Facebook group for people who do my work, you often get employers posting asking people to advise why they are getting no responses to their job advert. When you look, it is usually because they are being unrealistic in what they are expecting for the money. But they generally do not like being told that.

Good employers are still attracting staff. I got my current job as a friend who was working at the company and told me they were a great employer, and the salary is competitive. Managers treat people well and go out of their way to praise people and offer training and support. Meanwhile, the shit employer I worked for five years ago can't find anyone.

Employers are going to have to get used to treating staff better. AIBU?

I used to work for a large FTSE company with over 100,000 employees. We were literaly numbers to them, when someone left or took ML others in the team were expected to cover. Managers changed at least once a year due to the endless reorganisations. People constantly covered their bums so if there was anything tricky to resolve or manage with our clients the senior mgt were no where to be seen.

Constant half soaked ideas often by bean counters who had NEVER met or dealt with a client. They just saw the cost savings, hot desking where the offices were kept so cold that I often saw people in coats and hats!

Having to justify going to see a client (where the client in there contract paid for the travel). Being asked to stay in the cheapest place in town when out visiting a customer. This meant Travelodges on the motorway. No women wanted to do that so were travelling 500 miles in one day to avoid.

I could go on but I left with a large payout. Their answer was to try and get someone offshore to do my role. Only issue was I had Government Security Clearance so they couldnt do anything. Some poor sod eventually was found who lasted 12 weeks and then left.

Look at British Airways. Treat their staff like dirt. Cabin crew look about 12 and will live at home with Mum and Dad because the pay is so bad. Are they really expected to manage passengers in First and Business Class. Yet they still want to charge premimum prices. They have had huge issues with baggage handlers at Heathrow and are blaming the wind. There was chaos this weekend and no back up plan.

I really think it should be mandatory to put a salary on a job posting, it is such a waste of time applying if you know you will never work for that sort of money. I did go for an interview before and they had posted €35k - €40k DOE salary. She offered me €26K, it was through a recruiter. I actually laughed when the recruiter called to offer me the job at that salary. I told her I was really insulted and I have the experience to get the full salary. She said she knows, just her client wanted to advertise at a higher salary to attract a higher candidate and hopefully persuade them to join. I did not join.

I don't think it is just a brexit thing, in ROI we are having issues attracting staff in lower paid jobs too and we are in the EU. A lot of people retrained during furlong and no longer want to be customer facing and get abuse from the public and I don't blame them. Some wagon giving out to you, and you're earning min wage. I did waitressing/ bars/ shops in uni, so 10 yrs ago. It seems way worse now, people are way too rude/ entitled/ I will record this.

Increasingly in my field people offering lower wages i.e. £20k, £22k, are being advised in groups to recruit someone new and send them on training. But employers still want someone experienced. They do not seem to realise you have to be competitive. And if you are not you will only get desperate people who will not stay long, or people who are shit at their jobs.

@BlingLoving

I think pay is definitely one element. Although I often think pay is almost more important in retaining staff - nothing makes a person feel less valued and motivated than realising they're not being paid but being asked to do more.

But there's a skills shortage too. I don't really understand why considering for years there was a lot of competition for jobs. But I find it quite interesting.

I run a small business and employ freelancers on an ad hoc basis. I have a number of brilliant ones who are all extremely loyal and reliable, not least because I pay top rates, provide realistic deadlines and good briefings.

But whenever I need to find new freelancers, I'm always shocked at how bad so many of the people I contact are. In many cases, I don't even get around to seeing their work because their engagement with me is so poor that I realise I can't risk putting them in front of my clients, even if the work itself is brilliant (which seems unlikely).

What I don't fully understand is how this happens. How are these skills not being developed? How did these people earn money (or how do they? Is this why their rates are so low?)

As I mentioned, I'm at a new employer, and have purposefully stepped down to fit in with my studies.

I too have found the skills gap very surprising. My husband has only ever worked for employers with stringent professional standards (as opposed to qualifications) so is always shocked by my anecdotes.

I've been brought in to try and fix this (and they have no idea how much they'd have to pay for my level of skills normally), and find that the gap is way beyond some basic training. Their recruitment processes simply do not typically attract candidates with even basic professional capabilities. And it's good staff who are at the core of business progress. With the current cohort, I can't work miracles.

(Incidentally, I was watching the Moors Murderers documentary last night, and was struck by Brady's high level of literacy - for a school drop out at 15, especially. It's a bit grotesque that a psychopathic murderer showed more aptitude for self improvement than a typical employee at my firm.)

I think it works both ways. Many employees in some industries are expecting huge salaries, even when inexperienced, full health care and all the perks but wanting 4 day weeks (not being productive on their other days) and don't understand that the company doesn't have an endless pot of many to provide all of this.

@lurkingattheback if the employer is offering competitive pay and terms and conditions, then they need to look at their recruitment process. But many employers do not realise things have changed and are unrealistic.

Of course not. But since we now have to live with the ongoing shitshow of Brexit, we may as well make it as uncomfortable as possible for the scum that caused it. One way is to make Brexiteers squirm by asking for nice things and justify it by "being out of the EU".

I like your style. I'll have to try this.

@thecatsthecats Brady has always been recognised to be extremely intelligent. And it was commonplace then for working-class kids to leave school at 15 for work. Some will have been very intelligent and skilled, some will not have been. It really is not comparable to now.
When I was at school nearly everyone left my school at 16 years old for work - I am in my fifties. That included some very bright and capable kids.

don't understand that the company doesn't have an endless pot of many to provide all of this

Mneh. In my experience, business owners who witter the loudest about how they can't possibly afford the inexpensive changes employees are requesting are taking dividends / profit shares 10-100 times greater than the employees' salaries.

They can afford it and still have a very good income, they just don't want to reduce their obscene earnings. Critical distinction.

Regarding Brady ... well that's a whole other kettle of fish about whether the education system is fit for purpose. Although the real answer to that question really depends on what your think the education system is supposed to do in the first place are. It's clearly not intended to educate kids, but I'm sure there are other metrics that make it a roaring success. (The cleanliness of the cheese shop in the famous sketch being a parallel).

My husband is in the tech sector, and started someone this week with five years experience at £80k. They walked after two days for £115k. He can't just up eighty other programmers' salaries by 35k, 80 other programmers who have more than five years experience.

One big employer is trying to make a monopoly (and they've been successful in other sectors) and doing it by buying up all the talent and squeezing out all competition.

They have billions upon billions to spend, and it doesn't matter to them how much they pay now as five years down the line they'll be the only player in the game, and can charge the users whatever they want.

Three people have left my husbands work in recent months and they can't replace them because the pay is crap.
They can't recruit where I work as the pressure is unbearable and the pay is rubbish.
Company is making millions but won't spend it on staff wages and there are no perks.
They seem shocked people are leaving in droves but despite being told why at exit interviews nothing changes.

Their recruitment processes simply do not typically attract candidates with even basic professional capabilities. And it's good staff who are at the core of business progress. With the current cohort, I can't work miracles.

I partially agree with this, but think it's deeper. If you are advertising excellent pay, great client work etc, and you're still finding that candidates don't have basic skills, you have to ask what has been happening over the last 10-20 years that means skills haven't been developed. Is it because it just wasn't important? You could be incompetent and no one cared?

The NHS is a good example. My doctor's surgery is fantastic. efficient, proactive, helpful. The doctors themselves are universally pleasant and I've never experienced that sense that they're not listening/taking me seriously. I have a number of friends who have moved to my doctor's surgery and found the same experience. However, this is not universal. Those friends who have moved have done so at my recommendation after complaining about their old surgeries - one couldn't get a smear appointment for love or money. Another consistently was told there was nothing wrong with her child, from multiple doctors. She assumes they had a note on her file that she was difficult. New surgery diagnosed a serious (but not life limiting) condition and had it sorted within 6 months...

So what is the difference? For years, the old surgeries either got away with it OR their service has deteriorated. Why? How? What guidelines/targets have traditionally been set that service itself wasn't a priority?

the NHS is an easy target, but of course, its' true in multiple other industries. I worked for a massive global city organisation. In our team, we had endless problems and staff turnover.... all because of the head of department. Since his departure, the team has been stable, are, I believe, successful etc etc. But it took more than 100% turnover of staff before he was finally removed from post... why?

Dh's employers have staff shortages and are still a bunch of thunder cunts.

It makes me so happy to see shit employers suffering. They’re reaping what they’ve sowed. If you won’t pay your labourers at bare minimum thriving wage plus benefits, you don’t deserve staff and you don’t have a viable business. Anyone thinking poverty wage is acceptable for jobs they consider ‘unskilled’ (no such thing) is scum.

I do not have any sympathy for firms consistently failing to recruit staff. There will be an issue they are failing to address.

What guidelines/targets have traditionally been set that service itself wasn't a priority?

This is a very good question. A lot of targets cause incredibly dysfunctional and counterproductive behaviour. Even dangerous behaviour in cases like the csection targets that were finally abolished this week because they were putting lives at risk and causing harm.

I work in the public sector, in a role that exists and attracts at least 200% of my fte salary in the public sector. I stay for complicated reasons but I am now reconsidering that.
The public sector pay has been falling in real terms for a long time and it's controlled nationally with little room to manoeuvre around grades. With inflation rising this is getting worse. We haven't been able to recruit easily for years and we have to rely on agency staff. And these agency staff are expensive.
There's no drive at a government level to treat the permanent staff better in pay or pension so expect budgets to be in crisis paying agency staff and services to continue to worsen.

Company I used to work for thought for cost reasons they would recruit offshore. This went on for years and years. Constant cover up and they didnt want to know it didnt work because they signed off on it.

One idea was to have a UK based person responsible for say a group in India. We all knew it was so that they could blame the UK person for the issues and for not 'helping out'. India in particular were not comfortable in dealing with high level clients. Due to the language difference they were much happier filling in spreadsheets and reports but they couldnt stand up to a client or do a sale to save their lives.

This went on for years and years. The accountants loved it because offshore resource was considerably cheaper than UK. It was just awful trying to help and support people who you were never likely to meet. There was a high churn which meant anyone you worked with and was showing some promise wasnt there 6 months later.

Awful awful practise and I am glad to be out of it.

Yep. I think it’s hilarious! In the industry l work in then it hard to get people and employers are having to up their game. They now need to start paying more money, being more respectful (e.g. not expecting people to work every weekend when they were told at interview they get 25% of them off) and more flexible etc

A lot of targets cause incredibly dysfunctional and counterproductive behaviour.

Best cheese shop in the county sir !

And how, pray tell, was that decided ?

Very clean, sir.

Well it's certainly uncontaminated by any suggestion of cheese ...

@Theunamedcat

Its madness friend a has children worked around them for years recently the care agency she works for has a change of management not a problem suddenly management has an issue with the people working around children insisted that they were given calls after school before her husband got home so she would have to oay for childcare this makes her job unworkable and not worth it she is a genuinely great carer who can work late at night just not till after 5pm under previous management she had a rest between 2-5 then back out till 10 no problem nope this one wanted her to work 2pm till 10pm this did not work for her and many others so after many discussions they left the care company is now recruiting heavily and failing honestly take care of your employees and they take care of you

The problem with social care is that it's a 'vocation' - you're supposed to accept the shit pay and conditions because you're supposed to be in it for the job, not the money, and it's seen as a low skilled job that anyone can do. Conversely though, you have providers who are running a business that they want to make a profit from, which is apparently acceptable. And you have a client base that can't easily vote with their feet and go elsewhere nor have a loud enough voice to complain. Combine that with the hybrid system of payment, large fees for self funded clients, LAs not paying enough and it's an absolute mess that's not getting any better. When you add Brexit and covid to that, and the knock on effect of losing staff to both, I reckon a lot of providers are making more money than they were by running short shifts and saving on the wage bill, with no one able to do much about it because everywhere is the same, while providers are bleating that they can't get enough staff - at the same time as doing nothing about the working conditions or pay, instead blaming the 'work shy' wanting to live on benefits and never do a days work in their lives. But then society doesn't want to pay higher taxes, nor lose their inheritance on care fees, and in any discussion about it, many will claim they'll be off to Dignitas anyway should it happen to them so it won't affect them. Everyone wants someone else to make the sacrifice to provide good quality care.

I partially agree with this, but think it's deeper. If you are advertising excellent pay, great client work etc, and you're still finding that candidates don't have basic skills, you have to ask what has been happening over the last 10-20 years that means skills haven't been developed. Is it because it just wasn't important? You could be incompetent and no one cared?

I agree with this, and:

I do not have any sympathy for firms consistently failing to recruit staff. There will be an issue they are failing to address.

In my firm's case, it is that the board/senior team themselves have a low level of professional skills that just wouldn't fly in other sectors I'm familiar with. For example a bid manager given responsibility for a technical bid that's relevant to my role. She didn't know whether she had a smartphone or a basic phone, and didn't understand why we didn't use Dropbox instead of a CRM. Yet she's paid a consultancy rate equivalent to a 60k salary whilst only working one day a week. Yes, she does her own job well enough.

However, this is just one piece of a puzzle where the management are the blind leading the blind when it comes to normal professional standards, and the business fails to develop because they have no idea how their low standards come across to the public.

They then have a staff turnover issue because competent staff like the business, but don't want to hang around tied to a staff and management who don't have the wits that nature gave the pigeon.

Offshoring was all very well until it levelled up the skillsbase in India and Pakistan. Now those people (quite rightly) want more pay and a lot of offshoring isn't profitable anymore.

Anyone who has ever hung wallpaper and tried to get the air bubbles out might understand the landscape. Herding cats is a similar pastime.

I find this varies by sector, but as with so much ikt's a question of balance
Certainly there are employers who expect far too much, but then that also applies to some employees, and the aim is to find the sweet spot where everyone's mostly happy - not an easy thing anyway, especially ATM