To think employers will have to get used to treating staff better?

[Monopolyiscrap]

In my field like many, there is a shortage of experienced staff. Suddenly the shit employers are all complaining about how they can not get any staff. In a Facebook group for people who do my work, you often get employers posting asking people to advise why they are getting no responses to their job advert. When you look, it is usually because they are being unrealistic in what they are expecting for the money. But they generally do not like being told that.

Good employers are still attracting staff. I got my current job as a friend who was working at the company and told me they were a great employer, and the salary is competitive. Managers treat people well and go out of their way to praise people and offer training and support. Meanwhile, the shit employer I worked for five years ago can't find anyone.

Employers are going to have to get used to treating staff better. AIBU?

@ThatsGoingToHurt

I does make me chuckle when I get contacted by the agencies for the same jobs that come up every year. They want someone professionally qualified to work on site 5 days a week (sat at their laptop) with no flexibility on working days hours but pay 20/30k under the going rate! Then they also try to recruit someone on a fixed term contract instead of a permanent contract (it’s a permanent role) so if they don’t like them they can just let them go after 6 months!

The IT industry generally (my niche) has been bleating about a "skills shortage" for decades. And without exception, every role that is "hard to find someone for" is considerably under the going rate.

It's one reason why I really don't pay too much attention to the CBI et al. Which makes it harder to totally condemn Boris "fuck business" Johnson over his cynicism too.

If nothing else, it's amusing to see comments on LinkedIn job ads about posting the bloody salary of late. And it's thanks to LinkedIn I heard that it's the law in NY state now

www.forbes.com/sites/jackkelly/2022/01/06/in-a-big-win-for-workers-new-york-city-will-make-it-mandatory-for-companies-to-disclose-salaries-on-job-advertisements/

one American labor law I look forward to seeing here, now we're free of EU tyranny.

sorry posted too early

Sadly it won't last. On any thread about employment conditions you get loads of people insisting the OP should do whatever their employer tells them, no matter how unreasonable (or even illegal).

that is because, as i have come to realise, a lot of people don't know what to ask for. It doesn't occur to some people to say "well, look you want me to be flexible and come in for a 6:30am meeting, but then you won't be flexible enough to offer me a 3:30pm finish one day a week. So sell me on the idea that i should be more flexible than you"

I personally think that employers and employees need to do far more investment in their relationship. Sure, you may not like a Friday evening bottle of wine, but how about a monthly lunch together? or regular (need only be once a quarter) "meetings" where you all work a bit more on your interpersonal relationships? it is far far easier to work with people you know a bit more, even if it is still relatively superficial. Or why not have teams discuss a bit more about what their actual work entails? i work in a big team and it's always interesting to know that A does X and B does Y, if later on i need to know something and realise, because i know a bit more about their work, to ask B about it rather than A.

It doesn't have to be intrusive into personal life, but knowing what your employees short to mid-term career or work goals are, is very helpful. Even if it is "i don't mind staying in this job doing this relatively easy no responsibility work for ever"

one American labor law I look forward to seeing here, now we're free of EU tyranny.

is there an EU law that prevents this?

Yes, agree with being treated as a commodity …. All while maintaining to the public that they’re a cut above. What a crock.

Companies might need to offer higher salary, but if the money isn't in the budget then it will have to come out of other areas.

If the "money isn't in the budget", reconsider your business case. if you can't cover your costs through your income then that is not a business.

Agree. The shortage of teaching assistants speaks for itself.

I think you're right to an extent OP.

But with the Brexity government we have, they will want to reduce employment rights as soon as they can (as part of the "Brexit opportunities").

If you are in a niche or even not so niche role where good staff are sought after, you'll be ok - employers will need to be flexible (generally, not just in relation to things like WFH - for example they might to accept that you are good at some parts of the role but not others and either retrain you in those or get other employees to do them whereas in the past they would have sacked you for not being perfect) if they want to recruit and retain staff. But otherwise, you'll find that protection against discrimination and unfair dismissal is heavily reduced.

@Brefugee

one American labor law I look forward to seeing here, now we're free of EU tyranny.

is there an EU law that prevents this?

No there isn't, although loads of people on LinkedIn moaning about why this would not be a good idea (I disagree and think the salary range should always be posted).

There are plenty of EU laws protecting employment rights that you can wave goodbye to in the next five years. It would have already happened if covid hadn't happened.

@Orangade

Agree. The shortage of teaching assistants speaks for itself.

I thought that was because schools don't have the budgets to recruit them, not because they don't want them.

The IT industry generally (my niche) has been bleating about a "skills shortage" for decades.

I agree. A few years ago I was working for a major UK employer who imposed a strict salary cap on jobs (by grades). The end result was hiring 100s of contract staff on 3 times the cost of normal staff within the IT department.
These people were capable but had no idea of how the company worked, or what went on at the front line and were far less efficient than the existing people. Still senior management wouldn't budge as they had made a 'promise' to share holders to not increase wages.
When the inevitable redundancies came, most people walked out with a nice pay off into a better paid, less stressful new job, yet still the company would not change its ways.

There isn’t a shortage of teaching assistants, each job is hugely oversupplied, one reason the wages are so low, supply and demand. The reason for fewer teaching assistants is schools don’t have the budget for them.

*oversubscribed

I'm a nurse on a ward that is hemorrhaging staff at the moment. Just signed 3 goodbye cards last night alone. Was talking to a colleague who had 22 hours annual leave to take but she was refused as there wasn't enough staff. She went to hr and spoke to the manager who came up with a compromise of leaving early. She came in excited to have a half day to discover thst the manager had taken 1 hour off every shift so she got to leave at 7 instead of 8 for her next 14 shifts. Who would do that?????!!

I'm wondering about how to word this to my current (new) employer.

I happened to be on the lookout for an easy role which was remote and with shorter hours compatible with my studies. Hence ended up in a role several grades of pay below my usual whilst I'm retraining.

In my old role I had a lot of power and worked quite hard at improving conditions for staff - introducing more flexibility, more holidays, increased pay and reduced hours. And reaped the benefits. Happy, engaged, loyal staff.

They're advertising for a new role at my new place and they've only had six applications. I just want to shout "because the pay is crap for what you're asking!".

But since they're only paying me for £30k level advice, they're not getting my £60k pay level advice (If it sounds harsh, I have no ambitions with this employer, and they're already getting my other (technical) skills at a bargain rate - their strategy RELIES on hiring someone of my 60k abilities, but they were only offering half the rate. They are just very lucky that I was in the market for an easy ride alongside my course.)

@NuNameNuMe

Companies might need to offer higher salary, but if the money isn't in the budget then it will have to come out of other areas.

If the "money isn't in the budget", reconsider your business case. if you can't cover your costs through your income then that is not a business.

Hence why we have High Streets with boarded up empty shop units, why a huge amount of our manufacturing shut down and is now done abroad in cheaper countries, why customer service is being converted into voice recognition and online support instead of real people, why bank branches are closing, etc etc.

I hope the practice of avoiding numbers in job adverts is dying. Although it's axiomatic that any company advertising £competitive almost certainly isn't.

I agree, job adverts really need to be standardised to include basic information like pay. It’s probably the most frustrating thing about job hunting, especially when you consider that these days application processes are getting lengthier - full application not just a CV, 2 stage interview and an assessment for what turns out to be a 20k salary.

I’ve seen it explained as it allows for ‘negotiating’, but employers will know the max they are willing to pay, so just state the range at least!

I also get annoyed when adverts don’t specify shift patterns, or contracted hours. FT can be anywhere from 37-45 hours a week. Big difference to your working day there. ‘Any 5 out of 7’ doesn’t cut it, when you find out later that it’s a mixture of mornings, afternoons and evenings in that 5, and you only get 2 days off together once in 6 weeks.

I skip past these adverts now, because I don’t want to waste my time on an employer who isn’t transparent.

Its madness friend a has children worked around them for years recently the care agency she works for has a change of management not a problem suddenly management has an issue with the people working around children insisted that they were given calls after school before her husband got home so she would have to oay for childcare this makes her job unworkable and not worth it she is a genuinely great carer who can work late at night just not till after 5pm under previous management she had a rest between 2-5 then back out till 10 no problem nope this one wanted her to work 2pm till 10pm this did not work for her and many others so after many discussions they left the care company is now recruiting heavily and failing honestly take care of your employees and they take care of you

There can’t be an EU law preventing posting salary since in some EU countries it’s illegal to post a job without giving the salary in the advert.
In general, EU laws don’t stop countries giving their citizens more rights. It’s giving them less that is prevented (and all the Member States have previously all agreed to pass the EU law, don’t forget).

loads of people on LinkedIn moaning about why this would not be a good idea

Well, it would be a bad idea for poor employers.

Better market information leads to more efficient markets. We highly regulate inefficient markets like energy supply to prevent abuse but employment is perhaps the most power unbalanced market there is yet we leave it opaque.

Publishing all salaries and requiring them on adverts would go a long way to making the job market work better.

@ANameChangeAgain

I suppose schools are the classic for this! I really can't work out why a TA is considered a minimum wage job! I've seen so many qualified TAs leave to work in a local supermarket due to pay.

I think TA is a sought after job because of the hours. Term time, school hours, no child care costs. I'm not a TA but I work c. min wage for school hours. I could get a better job but by the time I pay childcare costs even with UC helping I'm worse off financially.

Hopefully. I work for a very good employer- above industry standard wages, up to 6 months full pay sickness, 6 months full pay paternity leave (and then 3 months half pay- can take up to a year off and apply for extended with no pay), good work/life balance, no expectation of unpaid overtime, investment in training etc and we are struggling to recruit. Had a job out for nearly a year now and only a smattering of applicants, not particularly niche either!

Also work for a pretty good employer but they simply won’t accept that their salaries have fallen behind. We are in one of the most expensive cities in the SE and people can’t afford to move for work here. Every HR meeting starts with a moan about how hard it is to recruit. I sit and scream internally - FUCKING PAY MORE! The company continued to do well despite Covid so there really is no excuse.

I can't get over FunnyInjury post. Turn away clients? How shortsighted is this? What salary are you offering? say £40k? Offer £45k. Or £50. You will make up that £5k or £10k on the clients you don't then need to turn down, quickly, surely?

@Aprilx

Maybe my experience is different because I would like to go back to work, and I am finding it very hard. I am not sure that the staff shortages are extending much beyond the hospitality industry, it is still extremely competitive market for the job hunter as far as I can tell.

I work in finance, one of the biggest employer in the industry and trust me we are struggling to find and keep staff.

‘Companies might need to offer higher salary, but if the money isn't in the budget then it will have to come out of other areas.’

It is so much more complicated than this though. I (honestly!) work for a good employer. If you raise wages for the new starters, what becomes of all the existing people? Our salaries are truly not bad and we have always been very concerned about wage equality between employees. The competition for candidates is so steep at the moment that less scrupulous employers in the same field are throwing money at even under-qualified people. We are reluctant to do that as we just can’t match those kind of increases for every existing employee, and that means we keep losing out on candidates to companies that I know are less pleasant to work for (bcs I have worked for them!) who are willing to just pay a few grand extra to get people through the door, before they start to treat them like rubbish. It is frustrating.