To admit I have no idea wtf is going on with Russia and the

[Dustlandcinderella]

I follow the news and can see that There is a lot about Russia and the Ukraine. But I can’t quite figure out what is happening , what the background is, and what the truth is (bearing in mind in any war there is propaganda on each side).

Am I the only person who doesn’t actually understand what’s going on

…In other words are you saying NATO is planning to put nuclear weapons on Ukrainian territory?

This is good for Putin’s motives and the background:

www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/02/putin-ukraine-democracy/621465/

@ChardonnaysPetDragon

Genuine question: Do you think Putin is remotely interested in diplomacy?

Not at the moment, I don't think. He's painted himself into a corner, with the West's help, and needs to save face.

Diplomacy is not A&E, it's the GP.

He is asking for assurances about

• NATO not being in ukraine
• the Minsk agreement for peace being enforced internationally

Whatever other problems there are, why are we not focusing on these issues for a start?

@ChardonnaysPetDragon

There is no possibility we are going to topple the Russian leader without a lot of trouble affecting our day to day lives

Do we really want to do that? We have toppled some dictators, Saddam, Ceausescu, Gaddafi come to mind and look just how well we did. Do you want an utterly lawless Russia? With their arsenal of every weapon possible? I know I don't.

I don't either!

Most of us know feck all about Russian history, Russian culture. It is extremely hard to extrapolate fact from fiction in the information available

@notimagain

…In other words are you saying NATO is planning to put nuclear weapons on Ukrainian territory?

I think that Putin is saying that yes. (I am not saying it!)

He is definitely talking about NATO weapons and has been for months

I will try to find a link to one of the interviews later on and post it

socks Nato can not block countries that wish to join any security alliance they wish, it is not the place of any other country to decide what alliances other countries wish to join. Russia is likely then to ask Poland, Estonia etc to withdraw from NATO on the same grounds would that be acceptable? Of course not. So NATO was not about to admit Ukraine over night, but were happy at some point to consider it at least.

Secondly the Minsk agreement was torn up last night by RUSSIA, not Nato when they decided to unilaterally sign parts of Ukraine as 'independent'. The areas in question are part of Ukraine not Russia, so adhering to the Minsk agreement was clearly not important to Putin at all.

There are no nuclear weapons in Ukraine, this is a fabrication made up by the Kremlin as an excuse to invade.

Socknjumpers is a Russian sympathiser - keeps name changing but keeps presenting the Russian distortions as “truth”

Ignore him or her - they’re just trying to muddle the issue further

@socksnjumpers

Thanks…

My concern is that the terminology may have caused some here to jump to conclusions.

I do understand (to some degree) Putin’s concerns.

[quote FaoinDrualus]This is good for Putin’s motives and the background:

www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/02/putin-ukraine-democracy/621465/[/quote]
I have been reading other links to the journalist who wrote this - it is highly subjective, and one of her articles said "Truss went to a meeting with the Russian FM and Truss didn't know the details of the Minsk agreement and the Russian FM was rude to her - clearly he has no interest in negotiation - now we should just use force" so I am not sure it takes us much further forward in our mission for peace or understanding. I don't really find her credible and having skim read that - it is incredibly subjective? And doesn't quote from the extensive interview footage available about what he wants from NATO which is really the point here?

Putin’s “concerns” are sophistry

Clever arguments to justify something he was going to do anyway

The west needs to respond seriously to this or he will sweep over Ukraine and that will be that

The UK could start by deporting all the Russian oligarchs, freezing their assets and confiscating things like Chelsea football club from them. The Tories need to stop accepting Russian donations and don’t forget Johnson elevated one of them to the House of Lords.

Cut off their access to the financial markets as much as possible. Stop Aeroflot flying to Western nations. Basically cut them off as a start point.

I agree with both points beryl

@BerylStrip

Socknjumpers is a Russian sympathiser - keeps name changing but keeps presenting the Russian distortions as “truth”

Ignore him or her - they’re just trying to muddle the issue further

What a load of bollocks! Jesus. I have said look at the interviews yourselves and also look at the information from Statista - look it up yourself! It is German and independent - why would they be publishing misleading information? I haven't a clue what is going on, beyond what i have said, nor do you, and I suspect nor do most of the politicians who we are relying on to negotiate us out of crisis!

Your post is an absolute disgrace. I see a crisis on the news, take the time and trouble to read into it and form the view that the West's diplomacy is a bit shite (and may be more to do with gas resources and money than the Ukraine) and then get accused of being a Russian sympathiser!

Look at it all yourself and form your own views!

I've been watching this whole thing unfold with increasing unease tbh. It's got a vibe to it that is most unsettling. Obviously there is a shit ton of politics from all countries and all angles - and everyone has their view on both what Putin is doing and how the West should deal with it - or not.

Putin is a tricky guy to read in many ways. He speaks calmly, quietly... he doesn't scream and shout like Hitler did - at least not in public. On the face of it, he appears quite rational. Underneath all that, he is obsessed with the USSR of old; he has a vision for a return to the old days and from what I've seen so far, he is determined to get it - whether or not his plan is, to everyone else, utter insanity. To him, it's perfectly reasonable - which makes it hard for diplomacy to succeed because he's not interested in any other outcome than the vision in his mind.

I watched Putin last night - you only had to listen to his long historical lecture and the things he said to be very concerned. Having watched this all unfold and listened to him, I am in no doubt that his plans extend beyond Ukraine (as if that wouldn't be bad enough) and some of what he said last night, to me, was him setting his stall out for a bigger plan.

The position of the West - UK, USA and Western Europe - is in many ways based on their recollection of WWII. There is a fear that if Putin is left too long (and many believe he's already been left too long) without sanctions etc... then he'll effectively do a Hitler. There are already a lot of similarities and I'm not someone who generally gets overly concerned about political posturing and what not - but this situation really concerns me and my gut feeling is that it has the potential to escalate rapidly. I really really hope I'm wrong - and will be delighted if I am.

Falling out of window and also being poisoned no matter where you are in the world!

What did Jeremy Corbyn say the other day? Go and talk to the people in the tanks?! socks is this the tack your thinking of?

@BerylStrip

Putin’s “concerns” are sophistry

Clever arguments to justify something he was going to do anyway

The west needs to respond seriously to this or he will sweep over Ukraine and that will be that

The UK could start by deporting all the Russian oligarchs, freezing their assets and confiscating things like Chelsea football club from them. The Tories need to stop accepting Russian donations and don’t forget Johnson elevated one of them to the House of Lords.

Cut off their access to the financial markets as much as possible. Stop Aeroflot flying to Western nations. Basically cut them off as a start point.

You want war, beryl, do you?

What a load of bollocks.

This is all getting a little out of hand, don't you think?

Diplomacy is over.
Russia is now set on a certain path, and for sure lets hope Putin the crackpot has some idea of the ending, because he may get a surprise he wasn't expecting...
China is going to distance itself from this shit show, as it damages their creditability by association, that is not to say they won't capitalise on the outcome in as many ways as possible.

My thoughts are with the mothers, small children and babies of Ukraine.

@BerylStrip

Socknjumpers is a Russian sympathiser - keeps name changing but keeps presenting the Russian distortions as “truth”

Ignore him or her - they’re just trying to muddle the issue further

Russian troll farms hard at work!

@BerylStrip

That is my point though - the effect that will have on our economy could be big, no? Will voters accept that and how would the Tories present it so that they could implement those sanctions in real terms? If that much money moves from the U.K. quickly it will have an effect on things, won’t it?

Perhaps I am wrong? I just think that certainly in London a lot of the money floating around seems to have become part of our economy in real terms - the housing market, tech, Overinflated assets, etc

Putin is absolutely doing a Hitler, and people are saying so openly now.

Bella the money in London does not come solely from Russia! So stop worrying, alot moved out years back after Salisbury. We also have to believe that not all Russians are Putin puppets, many are here to get away from Russia.

Yes, it will probably have an effect but the effect of not doing it will be worse. I’ve said before that Putin will invade Ukraine and been shot down by Russian sympathisers like socks before. Well here we are.

My view is that China is watching all this very carefully and if the West just resorts to a bit of pious handwringing as usual they will view this as a signal that territories like Taiwan which the covet deeply are ripe for picking.

People saying “we should not respond - it might be risky” need to see a bigger picture of what will happen if we don’t respond.

Basically I don’t think we can afford not to. I’m not confident the political will or, frankly, the cojones are there.

I am glad I’ve rattled socks. He or she can go back to sticking their tongue up Putin’s arse.

@alfagirl73

I've been watching this whole thing unfold with increasing unease tbh. It's got a vibe to it that is most unsettling. Obviously there is a shit ton of politics from all countries and all angles - and everyone has their view on both what Putin is doing and how the West should deal with it - or not.

Putin is a tricky guy to read in many ways. He speaks calmly, quietly... he doesn't scream and shout like Hitler did - at least not in public. On the face of it, he appears quite rational. Underneath all that, he is obsessed with the USSR of old; he has a vision for a return to the old days and from what I've seen so far, he is determined to get it - whether or not his plan is, to everyone else, utter insanity. To him, it's perfectly reasonable - which makes it hard for diplomacy to succeed because he's not interested in any other outcome than the vision in his mind.

I watched Putin last night - you only had to listen to his long historical lecture and the things he said to be very concerned. Having watched this all unfold and listened to him, I am in no doubt that his plans extend beyond Ukraine (as if that wouldn't be bad enough) and some of what he said last night, to me, was him setting his stall out for a bigger plan.

The position of the West - UK, USA and Western Europe - is in many ways based on their recollection of WWII. There is a fear that if Putin is left too long (and many believe he's already been left too long) without sanctions etc... then he'll effectively do a Hitler. There are already a lot of similarities and I'm not someone who generally gets overly concerned about political posturing and what not - but this situation really concerns me and my gut feeling is that it has the potential to escalate rapidly. I really really hope I'm wrong - and will be delighted if I am.

Can you link what you watched?

He talked about history in relation to Ukraine trying to justify why the West was wrong, otherwise it was just about nato and the minsk agreement. If you go back over a few years he has been consistent.

His history in politics and what he has done in Russia is nothing like Hitler from what I can see. And the historical context is completely different - Europe at the time of Hitler is nothing like what the world is like today.

I would want this crisis to be dealt with diplomatically, focusing on the issues because I don't think there is any other sensible choice - the only alternative is war and there appear to be diplomatic solutions which would not weaken the West at all - ie assurances about weapons and internation commitment to enforcing the Minsk agreement.

I even feel sorry for the Russian people they do not choose this war either, and many thousands will also dire both in the war to come and through the terrible poverty it will cause. This has ruined the chances of all young Russians and robbed them of any kind of future.

It is incredible that one man can cause this....I hope they find a way to have him removed.