To admit I have no idea wtf is going on with Russia and the

[Dustlandcinderella]

I follow the news and can see that There is a lot about Russia and the Ukraine. But I can’t quite figure out what is happening , what the background is, and what the truth is (bearing in mind in any war there is propaganda on each side).

Am I the only person who doesn’t actually understand what’s going on

Putin has lost his mind. Some people disagree with this because there is a belief that you can't go off the rails and still lead a country/organise a war. But Hitler went as loopy as you possibly can go and he still managed to lead - he did a spectacular job of inspiring people to support him and brainwashing/terrorising those that didn't - and he started a war. Not saying that this is going to lead to ww3, just pointing out that you can go off your rocker and still be a world leader.

@Keepyourheadscrewedon

tiger I believe that Germany and Italy in particular are the problem, and this for Germany has been a public relations nightmare. They were slow to impose any sanctions, Nord stream 2, they have not supplied or helped Ukraine at all, save a few helmets! They have deliberately blocked further harsher actions by the allies and turned up to a meeting with Putin (Macron as well) playing them both for fools as they tried to arrange a 'meeting' with Biden, Putin was giving the green light to invade. They have seemed grotesquely ill informed, ill prepared and slow to manage any response of note. And I am sure we will hear that it is hard to get 27 nations to agree, but isn't that the point? At moments of crisis we don't have months to broker back room deals, we have to respond swiftly and robustly.

And even today Germany (and Italy) are blocking the removal of Russia from Swift. Self interest seems to be first and foremost even as their neighbours are being blown up and murdered as they stall and dither.

It is disgusting.

Italy at least is no longer blocking the removal of Russia from swift, as of today.

The EU nations are a diplomatic waste of time - they can do money but they can't handle this. I dare say that Russia will have transferred most of its transactions to the Chinese clips systems by the time the EU agrees this mess.

I thought the usual criticism and excuse for Brits leaving the EU was that they wanted to create closer ties and start having a unified vision and direction. I thought Britain wanted to remain in a trading system that was purely about the money. Not to mention the horrified talk of a dreaded EU army. Now they get criticised for the opposite, by members of the nation (presumably) that was pulling them that way until very recently??

Economic giant, political pygmy - still true of the EU.

I look forward to the articles that say "Europe should step up". It won't.

Countries within it, that have been allied in the past, already are directly taking in refugees. The EU has agreed sanctions already with more on the way. They don’t have an army, partly thanks to their own pacifism, partly thanks to the US and U.K. working against it and partly down to too much idealistic trust in the power of hippy peace and love, but the one they are joined with is acting. Military supplies have been sent. What else are you proposing, I’m sure Macron would be delighted to hear practical suggestions of good will.

The EU nations are a diplomatic waste of time - they can do money but they can't handle this. I dare say that Russia will have transferred most of its transactions to the Chinese clips systems by the time the EU agrees this mess

27 individual nations would never in a million years agree on anything at all.

Its all very well for the UK to call for a Russian Swift ban and stop using Russian Gas... whilst we wont suffer but then refuse to do SFA about the Putin supporters in London and their wealth incase it damages the London property market.

The EU had the laws already in place to instigate sanctions, the UK has not, we are talking about things we will do, or even more ridiculous Boris saying oligarchs had been hit when they hadn't.

France has seized a a ship in the channel taking cars to St Petersburg...

i'm not sure what you expect after a few days of the invasion? Few including the UK and USA really thought Putin would do this.

Yes one would hope we will see much more coordination now the shock is wearing off, some clear thinking is needed. Much needed.

We can't go in and create WW3 (as much as I was desperate to protect Ukraine when this first happened, I can see I was just outraged and wanted so much to help) At some point I guess Nato WILL be tested, so lessons need to be learnt quickly.

In terms of Europe rushing to help, I think they will in terms of support and refuge for Ukrainians, many will increase arms to Ukraine and support sanctions. Lots of countries are closing their air space, kicking out the cronies living in palatial mansions in their capitals and I would imagine if Germany is the only thing standing between all the allies with swift, surely they can not hold this line for much longer?

I always feel Germany for whatever reason finds itself on the wrong side of history, and this is the case again. I knew German people feel we do, but they do have an awful lot of Russian sympathisers in the government and that really needs addressing. How much longer would they be considered an 'ally' if they don't?

Latest on the Beeb is that Hungary is in full agreement with EU sanctions, and Germany is sending real arms, breaking a longstanding policy in doing so.

@Keepyourheadscrewedon i just saw your response upthread. I didn't say that China defended Russia in my last post, if you read my post again I was quite exact with my words and every single thing I have said, if you google, it it will take you to a mainstream source. You post a lot on these threads, but you aren't really reading what people say to you properly.

There are things I disagree with and agree with in relation to most world leaders. I think you are wrong about anyone secretly wanting world domination (and I hope so too) it is more likely that if UN doesn't step in and Ukraine is taken, Ukraine will become another Chechnya. And stability would continue. And this would not be a good outcome.

I think that NATO members should have been in discussions with Putin well before last April when Putin started to build up a presence and most certainly since then far more than they have. But we are where we are and I think that world leaders now need to work out what the best outcome could be to satisfy both Ukraine and Russia interests - Putin has been interviewed many times about this over the last few years and his views have been consistent. And then work out how to achieve it with the help of the UN and as approved by R and U.

I think that this is achievable. But it needs some skilled negotiators.

I cannot understand how you cannot see that outcome is the most important thing here, for everyone including Ukrainians and Russians.

At some point I guess Nato WILL be tested, so lessons need to be learnt quickly it won't, too many (sensible) people are calling for negotiation. Nobody who understands the consequences of military action wants NATO to be tested

I always feel Germany for whatever reason finds itself on the wrong side of history, and this is the case again I think that you are completely wrong here. Also if you look at the sanctions imposed by US and UK both are without teeth. Sanctions were imposed after Crimea yet had no effect. Sanctions also affect the countries which impose them. I think that other ways of dealing with this peacefully and effectively exist.

Sorry, I meant instability would continue not stability

Germany have agreed to swift removal for 'some' banks.

We differ socks the outcome as you put it, needs to be decided by Ukraine, the people of Ukraine not outside forces or Russia. It is an independent country it can reorganise itself to represent everyone in the country once this is over. No more appeasement to Russia. That has been the policy for the last few years, and look where we are now. Russia doesn't care about the pensioners in the east of Ukraine or their rights, they just want to crush Ukraine's prosperity and independence and put them firmly back under Kremlin control.

It is game over for Russia now in terms of its world standing, creditability, respectability and quite frankly no one will trust a word they say after this. As they were actually invading Putin was telling us he had no intention of doing so. Liars, gangsters and murderers, all of them will need to be replaced by Russia

@Keepyourheadscrewedon thanks for that but you are massively simplifying things. Just to be clear, I do not support conflict or resolution by military means by either side - you do as long as the West wins - and therefore yes we do differ as I do not support military conflict from either side.

In relation to Ukraine's independence they are not independent militarily obviously. In the last 10 years they have been supported from various quarters. In relation to deciding on what happens, the Minsk agreement would not have been put in place simply because of Russia wanting it and we have the unstable situation with Crimea which would need to be resolved neither of those things could just be left to Ukraine. Could they?

Or do you mean that Zelensky should be able to decide what should happen and everyone else put that in place for him?! Because I'd say that is unrealistic. There are a lot of issues and it is important that they are all covered off so that this won't all kick off again in a few years' time.

Anyway, moving on, Russia has asked for ceasefire discussions with Zelensky for today and last I heard Zelensky has agreed provided that they agree on venue and so fingers crossed there, I would like to see the fighting stopped asap.

I believe that Ukraine should have the right to exist, to be free and to be independent and if that means defending their children and their land then of course one has to support it! It is not about a 'win' for the west, do you honestly think normal people think like that? I couldn't care less as long as a country can choose for itself if they wish to be autocratic fine, if they wish to be democratic that is also fine - but the wish of the people to have peaceful lives is paramount. The ONLY aggressor here is Russia don't forget!!!! Ukraine did not invade Russia or do anything to harm them, they are simply defending themselves.
The violence is solely on one person: Putin.

It is up to Ukraine how they see their future and how each area of their country is run, NOT Russia.

Russia has asked for ceasefire discussions with Zelensky for today and last I heard Zelensky has agreed provided that they agree on venue and so fingers crossed there

Well, I wouldn't hold your breath the last time I checked Belarus was joining the war (and Chechnya I understand) so clearly Russia must be failing - why else would they need so much back up?! And so talks in a country that are sending soldiers to kill is hardly going to happen, and even if Russia move the talks they have insisted that Ukraine step down and stop defending themselves, a term that they know Ukraine will never agree to. Even if that condition was dropped, who in their right mind would ever trust anything Russia has got to say after the reassurances just days ago from Putin that he would not invade??? We will never trust Russia again - never. Only a fool would believe they were there for genuine intentions.

Ukraine will have to defeat Russia, whether it is now or in 20 years time and this war will go on and on, because it should never have happened in the first place.

Above post for socks otherwise known as a Putler apologist.

@Keepyourheadscrewedon

Above post for socks otherwise known as a Putler apologist.

I thought with stopped with the poster bashing? Give it a rest, please.

I don't understand what's going on either.

I've tried to do some reading, and whilst I can understand why Putin wants to invade Ukraine, what I don't understand is the rest of the world's reaction to this?

If you haven't attacked another country, and suddenly they're sending soldiers over to yours, surely there's a moral responsibility for the world watching to leap to your defence rather than just talk about how awful it is? Does that mean if some country randomly started attacking us in the UK, no one would help us either?

Surely you can enter a conflict to stop a conflict rather than to aggressively attack one side. Why isn't this happening? Why are we all just watching?

@TYbakedpotato

Surely you can enter a conflict to stop a conflict rather than to aggressively attack one side. Why isn't this happening? Why are we all just watching?

Ukraine is not in NATO, so their forces directly entering the conflict would escalate matters way beyond where we are now (if that’s possible…)

TYbakedpotato We are all just watching because Putin is threatening over again to nuke anyone that gets involved, so we can't allow this to become a nuclear war - yes of course it is the worst kind of blackmail of the very worst kind, but we are dealing with gangsters and murderers not a normal, sane, reasonable and rational government.

We are in NATO and in the unlikely event that someone invaded our territory we could call on NATO help. NATO is a mutual defence organisation. US invoked it after 9/11.

Russia claims it is running scared of NATO. NATO did expand after the USSR collapse to take in a lot of the ex-Soviet states, that had once been free independent states before USSR came along.

Therefore he is invading the only free country left in that situation which is not in NATO. It’s not really supposed to make sense tbh, it’s a pretext. Anyway if NATO gets involved without the legal justification of defending its member, not only will that justify Putin’s paranoia in his mind, but China may get involved on Russia’s side. As could India. That’s a lot of nuclear powers with other territorial disputes getting involved.

Also the UN cannot get any resolution through against Russia - which might give some international legal wriggle room for peacekeepers - because Russia has veto powers at the UN. China abstained in that vote. Does all that help at all?

Has anyone seen any Indian or Chinese reactions to Putin’s nuclear threats?

Thank you for the explanation about NATO. I assume individual countries aren't allowed to take action 'independently' if they're members of NATO?

I get your points about nuclear weapons being devastating, but but surely he's always going to be able to win any argument by threatening nuclear weapons then? If we don't stand up against action like this... haven't we just effectively elected him president of the world?

Why on earth do we even have nuclear weapons anyway? If anyone is crazy enough to want mutually assured destruction, they shouldn't be in charge of any country. If no one wants mutual assured destruction, why can't we all get rid of nuclear weapons?

I just feel really despondent. How have we ended up in a situation like this in 2022? Every time I think life can't get any worse, something unexpectedly awful like this happens.

I agree about nuclear weapons. Proof positive that technology is advancing way ahead of any improvements in social or ethical capabilities. They are terrifying.

There was the nuclear disarmament treaty, but it requires trust so that - all parties it is now, rather than both, which complicates things even more - so that all parties disarm slowly and keep arsenals matching for their own protection. It’s dead in the water now anyway. The UKs nuclear deterrent is mobile, on submarines that are difficult to track

Every time I think life can't get any worse, something unexpectedly awful like this happens.

Agreed. What a run of awful things in recent years (I won't list MINE as some will disagree with one and take exception and that is not what this thread is about).

Earlier today I had a chat with a friend where we agreed that a Russian nuclear strike wouldn't be too bad in the light of the poor performance of the Russian army. Some would have nobody in attendance to fire them, many fail to launch, others head off lost in the wrong place in the sticks and only a few kill millions of innocents. Yes, this is the place we were in half jokingly. A week is all it takes to shift the ground beneath our feet.

I'd like last Sunday back again. However, I don't see that and whatever happens we are set on a different trajectory (together with all the other unmentionables).

If no one wants mutual assured destruction, why can't we all get rid of nuclear weapons?

In the Cold War, MAD supposedly stopped nuclear war from happening. This was the time of just two massively armed superpowers, a British 'deterrent' increasingly tied in with the USA one and the French with their Force de Frappe/Dissuasion. Now we have more nuclear powers and the example of Ukraine's disarmament as an example to not give them up under guarantee.