To admit I have no idea wtf is going on with Russia and the

[Dustlandcinderella]

I follow the news and can see that There is a lot about Russia and the Ukraine. But I can’t quite figure out what is happening , what the background is, and what the truth is (bearing in mind in any war there is propaganda on each side).

Am I the only person who doesn’t actually understand what’s going on

Breaking news

Russia now announced they will invading other parts of Ukraine. As we knew he would authorise. We should expect a protracted and bloody war that will never end, because Russia have miscalculated what lies ahead.

@BerylStrip

Thanks, Beryl. The question I have then is why didn’t democratic countries align against Russia back on 2014? I remember a period online (on here ?) when there was talk of what was happening there - why didn’t we react more determinedly then?

@Keepyourheadscrewedon

Breaking news

Russia now announced they will invading other parts of Ukraine. As we knew he would authorise. We should expect a protracted and bloody war that will never end, because Russia have miscalculated what lies ahead.

Well that would put the kibosh on any diplomatic solution.

As I said all along, Putin was going to invade Ukraine come hell or high water. The only question now is how the West will respond. I'd suggest a massive raft of severe sanctions in the next 24 hours as the opening salvo is the only way to go.

Militarily I am not in a position to know, or suggest, what might happen. I fear the Ukrainians will be abandoned and that this will lead to worse problems around the world further down the line.

Keepyourheadscrewedon

Where did you get the information about invading other parts of Ukraine? At the moment troops are only in Eastern part. Send the link please

I haven't read the whole thread so someone may have already mentioned this but let's not forget Russia also invaded Georgia in 2008. Part of its territory is, I think, still occupied by Russian troops and Georgia cannot now join NATO.

Georgia is 1/4 the size of Ukraine.

[quote Bellalastrasse]@BerylStrip

Thanks, Beryl. The question I have then is why didn’t democratic countries align against Russia back on 2014? I remember a period online (on here ?) when there was talk of what was happening there - why didn’t we react more determinedly then?[/quote]
The West has lost any appetite for military intervention. It was simply easier to not grasp the nettle. It was easier to kick the can down the road.

In terms of the rest. Well, the Tories are in the back pocket of the Russians and would never do anything much that might jeopardise that funding. The Germans have a reliance on Russian gas. That's 2 big hitters in the EU effectively neutered.

The US probably didn't see Crimea as something worth getting involved in, especially given the lack of European appetite for the same.

I accept hindsight is a wonderful thing in all of this, but given the situation that is playing out now is not, really, so different to Crimea it's to be hoped the West will realise the mistakes made in 2014 and play a different game. I fear, though, it won't happen and worse problems will be stored up for the future.

There are no good, or obvious, solutions to any of this now.

The culture and politics of that region is a lot more complicated than the average Brit would be able to assess. The Russians are generally a paranoid nation. I have worked out there (thankfully minimally). The first time I went they were bizarrely convinced that I could be a spy from the UK and their questioning reduced me to tears. I met a high society government employee and relayed my horror to her and she must have pulled a few strings. When I returned to the airport a few days later, the original psycho had turned into my new best friend 'Hi Do you remember me? I'm the person you met on Monday etc. You must come back. You are welcome back anytime"

However, even then, I doubt they trusted me as my email account was hacked pretty much immediately after in a major way. I was receiving emails in Cyrillic referring to private conversations I had with my then best friend as though they were from said friend and being quite insulting so somebody had obviously snooped on all our conversations

StarbucksSmarterSister

No part of Georgia is occupied by Russian troops.

@BusyEvenForBee

StarbucksSmarterSister

No part of Georgia is occupied by Russian troops.

You are wrong.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupied_territories_of_Georgia

Just checking in, I'm away on a ski holiday but trying yo keep track of what's going on.

If I ever need to know what is going on and have missed the build up to something. I check out Newsround as they write a simple explanation

Good top tip! The newspaper and even bbc articles are often written with an assumption of some knowledge. Sometimes an "explain it to me like i'm a 5 year old" is needed.

BerylStrip

You need to read about history in more depth then. What do you know about the Republic of Abkhazia and the Republic of South Ossetia. The key word is Republic.
But I believe we are discussing Ukraine here.
I suggest that Russian intelligence looked pretty deeply at any impact sanctions would cause and still made the decision. Sanctions will not work.
I agree with Sock, West should look into honouring Minsk agreements and keep Ukraine out of Nato.

Just put on ANY news channel if you are allowed to have a break and check it out?

Putin has now decided to invade the whole of the Eastern flank, it is breaking news and everywhere.

I can help:

news.sky.com/watch-live

@BusyEvenForBee

BerylStrip

You need to read about history in more depth then. What do you know about the Republic of Abkhazia and the Republic of South Ossetia. The key word is Republic.
But I believe we are discussing Ukraine here.
I suggest that Russian intelligence looked pretty deeply at any impact sanctions would cause and still made the decision. Sanctions will not work.
I agree with Sock, West should look into honouring Minsk agreements and keep Ukraine out of Nato.

I merely rebuffed your assertion which is not correct; parts of Georgia are occupied by Russia no matter what you might like to think. We are, indeed, discussing Ukraine as you say, though.

Russia has torn up the Minsk agreement. Putin has said as much.

How do you propose we honour it under those circumstances ?

[quote BerylStrip]@veevee04

The Japanese constituion essentially (I'm paraphrasing) forbids them from having a military or from engaging in war. The quid pro quo is that the US is entirely responsible for their defence.[/quote]
As has been mentioned that is not correct.

There are treaty restrictions but the Japanese have a very well equipped “self defence” force.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan_Self-Defense_Forces

@notimagain

A self-defence force is permitted under their constitution.

What I said is correct. They are not allowed a military and they are not allowed to engage in war.

Keepyourheadscrewedon

Eastern flank is old news. Putin recognised their independence and their leaders asked for help, agreement was signed. We know these news since this morning. You mentioned Other parts of the Ukraine.

BerylStrip

Russian was asking for 8 years to honour Minsk agreements. How much longer do you expect him to wait in order to get a response? There is civil war in Ukraine for 8 years. Children in Eastern Ukraine are used to shots being fired, to schools being destroyed, for members of their families being killed. There are thousands of refugees being taken by Russia at the moment: women, elderly and kids.

this was never about NATO membership! It was just a ruse
Germany and France agreed to convince Ukraine to stay out of Nato and respect the Minsk agreement

We could have called his bluff on the NATO membership?

We don't know what drives Putin but to compare him to a latter day Hitler is quite frankly incredibly insulting to the 24m Russians who died at Putins hands as well as completely wrong.

The Minsk agreements were never implemented or honoured (the fighting continued & had nothing to do with nato membership)

Ukraine couldn't met NATO criteria due to the disputed areas in Ukraine and the on going fighting since 2014, it had nothing to do with France etc asking Ukraine to drop their desire for NATO membership, which Ukraine wont do.

But what will encourage Putin is the UK's list of incredibly weak sanctions against Russia, what a joke - maybe the old meme joke that Boris is in fact a deep cover Russian agent is correct.

[quote BerylStrip]@notimagain

A self-defence force is permitted under their constitution.

What I said is correct. They are not allowed a military and they are not allowed to engage in war.[/quote]
Japan has many more frigates and destroyers than the UK & France combined... a unrelated thread fact.

@BusyEvenForBee

BerylStrip

Russian was asking for 8 years to honour Minsk agreements. How much longer do you expect him to wait in order to get a response? There is civil war in Ukraine for 8 years. Children in Eastern Ukraine are used to shots being fired, to schools being destroyed, for members of their families being killed. There are thousands of refugees being taken by Russia at the moment: women, elderly and kids.

They may have been asking, but they were - at the same time - destabilising Ukraine. Doesn't say much for their honouring of the agreement, does it ?

In any event, you said you want us to honour Minsk. I repeat my question - given that Putin has stated it's effectively torn up, how would you like us to do this ?

[quote BerylStrip]@notimagain

A self-defence force is permitted under their constitution.

What I said is correct. They are not allowed a military and they are not allowed to engage in war.[/quote]
Regardless of semantics I think most people would for example look at an Air Self Defence Force equipped with over 700 aircraft, including 100 F-15s and with 123 F-35s on order as being pretty well placed from a military POV.

Their Navy and Army are in pretty good shape as well.

@notimagain @Alexandra2001

I accept what you say about Japan - but it is quite off-topic :)

The elderly and kids are being moved out by the Russians as they prepare to invade Ukraine, they are not moving with their own free will but being sent to sports halls and thousands of miles away in Russia for safety as a significant invasion is just about to take place! How you spin such BS.

The Russians have now signed to move into Ukraine territory - across the whole of the flank, which is NOT old news as it was breaking news five minutes ago.

Putin is the new Hitler and he will end up being responsible for millions more deaths of both Russians and those in Ukraine, directly through military action and indirectly with the poverty and desolation that will follow.

@Keepyourheadscrewedon

alexandra and you can keep saying WW3 and that is certainly something Russia should be very afraid of. You can only push the west so far.

The west will not go to war with Russia over the Ukraine, Russia is a huge exporters of commodities, wheat, metals, oil and gas... things we all need coming out of CV.

We had the (slim) chance of keeping Ukraine independent but blew it on ideology.