To admit I have no idea wtf is going on with Russia and the

[Dustlandcinderella]

I follow the news and can see that There is a lot about Russia and the Ukraine. But I can’t quite figure out what is happening , what the background is, and what the truth is (bearing in mind in any war there is propaganda on each side).

Am I the only person who doesn’t actually understand what’s going on

This article in The Guardian (so not a rabid, right wing horror like The Daily Mail) today is very salient. It's written by a former British diplomat so one presumes he understands a lot more about it than any of us can hope to:

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/feb/22/west-appeasement-putin-russia-ukraine

If China takes Taiwan the effect on the technology we all depend on for everything will be huge. And not in a good way.

@Alexandra2001

Well, yes re: Johnson and his Russian money. I believe I said as much.

Ukraine being made neutral - well, has anyone asked what the Ukrainians want ?

Your comment about the Russians destabilisting Ukraine is too late. They've been doing it for years. It's something they're really very good at...

Putin did not have to use his troops. That was entirely his choice. Ukraine has not become a member of NATO (or, indeed, the EU) although is a candidate nation.

Why is it everyone in a democracy is so keen on people being able to choose what they want, until suddenly it doesn't suit us any more because it's all a bit too difficult suddenly ? Surely we should be encouraging nations along the path of democracy and international co-operation ? Joining a democratic community like the EU or a co-operative defence pact like NATO should surely be encouraged ? No ?

@renovating

If China takes Taiwan the effect on the technology we all depend on for everything will be huge. And not in a good way.

Correct, Taiwan strategically is very important but after COVID and rapid inflation there's no appetite for war in the west I'm not sure the USA would let China take it without a fight. There's also talks of China and Japan arguing over disputed islands but Japan are very technologically advanced but right now don't have a military because of WW2. There are articles about them rearming because of the threat from China and they will be an ally to the west.

@Dustlandcinderella

I follow the news and can see that There is a lot about Russia and the Ukraine. But I can’t quite figure out what is happening , what the background is, and what the truth is (bearing in mind in any war there is propaganda on each side).

Am I the only person who doesn’t actually understand what’s going on

Remember learning about Hitler invading Poland? And then planning to invade other countries too, and then it all escalated there was a world war? It's like that but instead of Hitler it's Putin and instead of Poland it's the Ukraine.

@veevee04

The Japanese constituion essentially (I'm paraphrasing) forbids them from having a military or from engaging in war. The quid pro quo is that the US is entirely responsible for their defence.

@BerylStrip In an ideal world yes but we don't live in one, did removing Saddam benefit the Iraqis or the west, like wise libya? all done in the name of democracy.

Russia is a paranoid country and yes, whilst the ukrainians might well wish to join Nato, that wish shouldn't come at the expense of war, which will devastate them and end up with them under the Russians & no longer independent.

What i find very sad is Boris's toothless sanctions against Russia but it goes far deeper than Russia and Putin, London has been at the centre of money laundering for years, especially in property.

Untangling all of this should have been years ago, Russia hasn't just popped up on our radar.

[quote BerylStrip]@veevee04

The Japanese constituion essentially (I'm paraphrasing) forbids them from having a military or from engaging in war. The quid pro quo is that the US is entirely responsible for their defence.[/quote]
Not quite true anymore looks like they are steadily preparing themselves.

www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/with-an-eye-china-japans-ruling-party-makes-unprecedented-defence-spending-2021-10-13/

[quote Alexandra2001]@BerylStrip In an ideal world yes but we don't live in one, did removing Saddam benefit the Iraqis or the west, like wise libya? all done in the name of democracy.

Russia is a paranoid country and yes, whilst the ukrainians might well wish to join Nato, that wish shouldn't come at the expense of war, which will devastate them and end up with them under the Russians & no longer independent.

What i find very sad is Boris's toothless sanctions against Russia but it goes far deeper than Russia and Putin, London has been at the centre of money laundering for years, especially in property.

Untangling all of this should have been years ago, Russia hasn't just popped up on our radar.[/quote]
Absolutely - I couldn't agree more re: the toothless sanctions and I absolutely agree that London is a good place to launder money. I'm sure one of the primary drivers behind Brexit was the desire to remove London from any EU oversight - or worse, enforcement action.

This nettle should have been grasped years ago, but the Tories are in the back pockets of the Russians and I'm quite sure the Russians know it.

Going back to your first point - I agree with you, but I'm not suggesting we remove Putin. That's up to the Russians to do. I am simply saying we should extend to the Ukrainians the same courtesy and privilege we already have: self-determination. I fear the message that is being sent to the rest of the world is that democracy is weak and ineffectual and, so, not something to aspire to.

I agree with you, but I'm not suggesting we remove Putin. That's up to the Russians to do. I am simply saying we should extend to the Ukrainians the same courtesy and privilege we already have: self-determination. I fear the message that is being sent to the rest of the world is that democracy is weak and ineffectual and, so, not something to aspire to

This crisis is not about democracy, it is about a peace agreement and NATO's presence - and in relation to NATO when Russia put arms in Cuba during the cold war what did US say? You Are Too Close Take Them Away. Isn't that the same thing as what is happening now except Russia is saying it? Everyone was afraid it would end in war. It didn't because Russia removed the missiles.

You say you don't want to remove Putin, so what this really comes down to is the best way to ensure peace? I would say negotiation and diplomacy at this stage.

Negotiation and diplomacy all the while Putin RIGHT NOW is passing legislation to use weapons and invade the rest of Ukraine.

The reality vs Socks' claims are unreal.

You can see how an entire nation have been brain washed into a zombie like response when you can't even acknowledge what he is actually doing, opposed to what you THINK he should/is doing.

He is moving tanks over as you speak Socks.

I agree with @Keepyourheadscrewedon

Unless Putin backtracks, in a big way - and this seems unlikely - the SS Negotiation and Diplomacy has sailed.

Putin has no further need for negotiation - he has what he wants and sees no need for it. And, being blunt, given the West's reaction to his annexation of Crimea I find it hard to argue why he should behave any differently.

We have already seen with Putin what conciliatory responses get you. More aggression further down the line which is where we are now.

So I’ve just read a Reuters article about Ukraine and the far right and a group called C14 who have been given the ok to patrol an area. That can’t be right? www.reuters.com/article/us-cohen-ukraine-commentary-idUSKBN1GV2TY

@Keepyourheadscrewedon

Negotiation and diplomacy all the while Putin RIGHT NOW is passing legislation to use weapons and invade the rest of Ukraine.

The reality vs Socks' claims are unreal.

You can see how an entire nation have been brain washed into a zombie like response when you can't even acknowledge what he is actually doing, opposed to what you THINK he should/is doing.

He is moving tanks over as you speak Socks.

Well, if thats the case, then the West/your position on Putin has utterly failed. We haven't negotiated, we have stuck to our hard line on NATO membership and Putin is about to walk into the Ukraine.

We may as well re draw the map of europe right now.

@Bellalastrasse That article is 4 years old...

Well Corbyn has blamed us And Said we are being provocative by putting tanks into area near Ukraine!

Yes because we don't let dictators demand which democratic independent nation's can join a club.ukraine has moved on it's non of Putin business

Corbyn is a joke.

@BerylStrip. Yes, true but my point was how come Ukraine is allowing this. Putin’s point is that the far right are too powerful there (isn’t that the argument he uses?) so why aren’t Ukraine doing something?

But yes this is some unintentional derailing from the much more informed argument here so sorry to derail - I am just trying to understand it all.

@Tigersonvaseline

Yes because we don't let dictators demand which democratic independent nation's can join a club.ukraine has moved on it's non of Putin business

Defiantly worth having WW3 over.

[quote Bellalastrasse]@BerylStrip. Yes, true but my point was how come Ukraine is allowing this. Putin’s point is that the far right are too powerful there (isn’t that the argument he uses?) so why aren’t Ukraine doing something?

But yes this is some unintentional derailing from the much more informed argument here so sorry to derail - I am just trying to understand it all.[/quote]
Well it suits Putin's purposes. The argument he is using is a smokescreen to justify what he's going to do anyway. Really, for Putin to complain about extremism in another country given how brutal his regime is at home is a bit much to stomach...

Ukraine is not - yet - a proper democracy. It is generally classed as a 'transiting' or 'hybrid' regime. Various international agencies have been working to try to strengthen things like LGBT rights, free expression, civic oversight of security services and so on. Basically, the things we think of as desirable and an indication of democracy.

I sort of sound like a stuck record for which I apologise, but Ukraine is a candidate member of the EU and of NATO. For the former they have some way to go but my understanding is that progress has been made and the EU is happy to continue to help as are other international agencies. My personal view is that this is desirable for many reasons. It's good for the people of Ukraine, it's good for western democracies because it shows we are willing to 'walk the walk' and help people who aspire to our standards and way of life. It introduces stability into a reason that, frankly, is in sore need of it. There are probably many other good reasons as well.

Putin is now riding roughshod over all of this careful diplomatic work because it doesn't suit what he wants. He doesn't give tuppence for the Ukrainians, he just wants to annex the country and that's what he's going to do unless he's given a good reason not to. Saying they won't be allowed to join NATO is not a reason that is going to stop him - he will just invent another.

*stability into a region. Wretched autocorrect.

alexandra this was never about NATO membership! It was just a ruse.
Diplomacy has not failed, because Putin never entertained any real desire to compromise. Germany and France agreed to convince Ukraine to stay out of Nato and respect the Minsk agreement they have barely touched down to even meet the president of Ukraine before Russia announced that parts of Ukraine were 'independent'!! And tore up the agreement altogether.....Putin gave the EU leaders no chance at all to bridge the compromise, he had no intention or need for one.

This is certainly a failure of the west for not doing something far far bigger when Crimea was invaded, they are guilty of taking far too long to recognise the modern day Hitler that Putin is, but they are certainly can not be charged with not trying to fix things. It takes two sides, and one was already checked out and ordering the tanks to cross the border.

It is a reasonable question. Even if you know all there is to know about USSR's history, trying to work out Putin's reasoning for many things is tricky!

alexandra and you can keep saying WW3 and that is certainly something Russia should be very afraid of. You can only push the west so far.