To admit I have no idea wtf is going on with Russia and the

[Dustlandcinderella]

I follow the news and can see that There is a lot about Russia and the Ukraine. But I can’t quite figure out what is happening , what the background is, and what the truth is (bearing in mind in any war there is propaganda on each side).

Am I the only person who doesn’t actually understand what’s going on

If anyone can post the footage from last night which has concerned people, please could you @ me as I'd like to watch it
thanks

@socksnjumpers
I don't really find her credible and having skim read that - it is incredibly subjective?

Most articles are subjective - depending on your own opinions you will either agree or disagree with them. That doesn't make them inaccurate.
Anne Applebaum is a Pulitzer wining author.
From her Britannica entry - Anne Applebaum is a historian, journalist and a foreign policy columnist for the Washington Post. She is also a Professor of Practice at the London School of Economics where she runs Arena, a program on disinformation and propaganda. Among other awards, she has won the Pulitzer Prize, for Gulag: A History, in 2004, the Cundill Prize for Iron Curtain, in 2013, and the Duff Cooper prize for Red Famine: Stalin’s War on Ukraine.

@socksnjumpers - I believe the still photo on that post is taken from this video of Putin addressing the nation:

Is it really necessary to be so unpleasant to each other?

This was quite an enjoyable thread.

*interesting not enjoyable

[quote FaoinDrualus]@socksnjumpers
I don't really find her credible and having skim read that - it is incredibly subjective?

Most articles are subjective - depending on your own opinions you will either agree or disagree with them. That doesn't make them inaccurate.
Anne Applebaum is a Pulitzer wining author.
From her Britannica entry - Anne Applebaum is a historian, journalist and a foreign policy columnist for the Washington Post. She is also a Professor of Practice at the London School of Economics where she runs Arena, a program on disinformation and propaganda. Among other awards, she has won the Pulitzer Prize, for Gulag: A History, in 2004, the Cundill Prize for Iron Curtain, in 2013, and the Duff Cooper prize for Red Famine: Stalin’s War on Ukraine.[/quote]
I htink this is an editorial, not an article. Articles aren't supposed to be subjective, I don't think? It is normal for historians to have subjective views, and to disagree with one another. At this time her level of subjectivity seems misplaced.

[quote prh47bridge]@socksnjumpers - I believe the still photo on that post is taken from this video of Putin addressing the nation: [/quote]
thank you

Beryl I am finding your post interesting but you will get banned for attacking sock.

This is an open forum and it's interesting to read different view points even if they go against what we want to hear.

I don't like the idea that someone must be a Russian plant just because they take a pro Russia stance.

@Tigersonvaseline

Beryl I am finding your post interesting but you will get banned for attacking sock.

This is an open forum and it's interesting to read different view points even if they go against what we want to hear.

I don't like the idea that someone must be a Russian plant just because they take a pro Russia stance.

Just to be clear, I am not taking a pro Russian stance I am taking a pro peace stance You don't get peace without diplomacy and negotiation and you cannot do that without fully understanding the other side's point of view

Just imagining in Putins war Room.

"Comrades, we have successfully ignored and hoodwinked all the stupeed NATO allies.
We have strung biden alonck. For as much as poor old man can stay awake to leesten
But comrade's leesten. we have forgotten extremely important and powerful association.

Mumsnet!!

Slam's fist on desk.

Mumsnet comrades! Immediate infiltration needed to brains wash these people's.

@socksnjumpers

Negotiation is a two way street. There’s nothing from the Russian side except a salvo of bullets and a row of tanks.

Annexation is a game Putin is all too familiar with. If he’s serious about negotiation he’ll stand down. He’s clearly not. No amount of your propaganda is going to change this simple fact.

@Tigersonvaseline

Just imagining in Putins war Room.

"Comrades, we have successfully ignored and hoodwinked all the stupeed NATO allies.
We have strung biden alonck. For as much as poor old man can stay awake to leesten
But comrade's leesten. we have forgotten extremely important and powerful association.

Mumsnet!!

Slam's fist on desk.

Mumsnet comrades! Immediate infiltration needed to brains wash these people's.

I think you will find Russia intelligence has already discovered mn And no, i am not involved on any level

I don't think there is a good and bad right and wrong in this situation. The US is being provocative as it backed a military coup in the Ukraine and is pumping weapons into the area. The Ukrainian government is not democratically elected. The idea that Russia would accept the Ukraine joining NATO is also ridiculous. Yes they are a sovereign country so is Ireland do you think the UK would support a pro Russian government in Ireland or Scotland if they go independent. Putin is trying to rebuild the old soviet empire piece by piece so he is also to blame. The UK should stay out if it and the media should be ashamed of themselves again for the irresponsible jingoistic bollocks they are spouting.

Well said socks

[quote BerylStrip]@socksnjumpers

Negotiation is a two way street. There’s nothing from the Russian side except a salvo of bullets and a row of tanks.

Annexation is a game Putin is all too familiar with. If he’s serious about negotiation he’ll stand down. He’s clearly not. No amount of your propaganda is going to change this simple fact.[/quote]
See my diplomatic solutions in my first post above.

Nato agrees not to put weapons in Ukraine unless Russia attacks

International peacekeeping bodies read Minsk agreement and agree to enforce provisions

This is what Russia has been asking for
Why do you think the West isn't doing this? It would not weaken the West. Enforcing the Minsk agreement would strenghten the West

@TheHateIsNotGood

Well said socks

Thanks

@Scout98765

Don’t call it ‘the’ Ukraine. That’s from when it was a region of the Russian Empire/USSR.

It's about to be a region of Russia again so, if the cap fits..?

@socksnjumpers

Moscow tore up the Minsk agreement though.

If the Russians continue like this I think it's easy to see they'll look at the Baltic states next - they used to be part of the USSR, they're part of NATO now.

Perhaps a better question to ask is why do these countries not want to rush back to Mother Russia if it's all so fine and dandy there.

People in Western Democracies do not realise how lucky they are. Most countries in the world are not democracies. We are the lucky few and if you want to maintain this privilege then sometimes you have to fight for it.

For far too long the can has been kicked down the road and now (to mix my metaphors) this nettle needs to be grasped.

You say sanctions won't work. I am unsure - if the sanctions are fast enough and hard enough it sends a very clear message to Putin. Make no mistake, the rest of the world is watching and the West cannot be seen to be weak any longer.

Bullies in any context need to be stood up to or they just carry on bullying. We've all seen it, and I'm sure some have experienced it as well.

Putin is a bully. I'm not in a position to comment on his sanity although I know others do. Diplomacy will not work. It simply will not. He doesn't understand it and he doesn't care. He wants what he wants and, right now, he wants Ukraine. If he gets it he'll be eyeing up other choice territories further down the line.

@Aishah231 - You might want to check your facts. There was no military coup in Ukraine. Parliament and protestors ousted the then president after he and his government tried to use the police to put down protests using live ammo. The Ukrainian government is democratically elected. Both parliament and president were elected in 2019.

Would we be happy about a pro-Russian government in Ireland or Scotland? No. Would we invade or threaten to invade those countries if they elected a pro-Russian government? No. Spot the difference from Putin's approach.

I found these series of Maps quite informative and interesting:

eurasiangeopolitics.com/ukraine-maps/

This is bigger than Ukraine and Russia. China will be watching the west's response to this if it is weak this will be the green light to invade Taiwan. If I was Japan I would start rearming again, the Japanese are a formidable force at full strength

@BerylStrip lay off the personal attacks on socks. You don't have to agree with them but you're taking it too far.

@veevee04

This is bigger than Ukraine and Russia. China will be watching the west's response to this if it is weak this will be the green light to invade Taiwan. If I was Japan I would start rearming again, the Japanese are a formidable force at full strength

Exactly. Everyone is watching this.

The Chinese and the Russians see the West as decadent (in the true sense of this word - meaning decaying). They think we're fading into oblivion and they can basically rule the roost.

Many people do not realise how serious a Chinese invasion of Taiwan would be. Taiwan is a major produced of cutting edge semi-conductor chips. They produce the best in the world and the Chinese have nothing like it. Additionally, US trade embargoes have cut Chinese companies off from a lot of western technology so they're even more desperate. Their own processors are terrible compared with anything produced by western tech. Same with the Russians.

The point of looking at a bigger picture is to be able to see that 'doing nothing' might actually be our worst option in the longer term. I do not think the current situation is the same as that in mid 1930's Europe, but I do think there are some useful parallels to be drawn. Appeasement seldom works with people like Putin. At best it delays the inevitable.

Again, and again I see people saying "we want a diplomatic solution". Well, yes, of course. Everyone does. The difficulty is that it's looking increasingly unlikely there is an acceptable diplomatic solution to be had.

Let's say, for a moment, we agree that Ukraine is not a candidate member of NATO and, so, not going to have NATO weapons put there. Do you think, for one moment, that is going to get the deal done ? Because the answer is 'no'. What it's going to do is embolden Putin - he's going to look, almost certainly, at the Baltic states and then the situation is much worse. They are all members of NATO and we are treaty bound to defend them. Should we ignore our treaty obligations because we want a so-called 'diplomatic solution' ? Where, exactly, are we going to draw this line ?

Should we let China take Taiwan ? Does it matter ? It's a long way away after all.

I simply do not think the West can respond without being strong any longer. I think this is a pivotal point (I suspect most people agree with this statement, even if no others I've made) and our reactions to this crisis are going to have repercussions for decades to come.

@BerylStrip

Putin’s “concerns” are sophistry

Clever arguments to justify something he was going to do anyway

The west needs to respond seriously to this or he will sweep over Ukraine and that will be that

The UK could start by deporting all the Russian oligarchs, freezing their assets and confiscating things like Chelsea football club from them. The Tories need to stop accepting Russian donations and don’t forget Johnson elevated one of them to the House of Lords.

Cut off their access to the financial markets as much as possible. Stop Aeroflot flying to Western nations. Basically cut them off as a start point.

...and how do you imagine Putin would react to all that? nothing left to lose, invade ALL of Ukraine....

The tories gave citizenship to all of Putins friends, as its illegal to take foreign donations, Boris even played Tenis with one of them for money ffs!
We should also be untangling Russian money in the UK and removing citizenship where appropriate.

I'd much rather Ukraine was declared a neutral country, Russia withdraws troops, with the threat that should Russia try to destabilise Ukraine or put back troops, they will be given automatic NATO membership and article 5 applies.

But we've stuck to a fixed position of Ukraine can join NATO in the future and that gives Putin no way out, so he has to use his troops.

Stupid as war in europe will devastate our lives, which will make covid lockdowns seem like paradise.