To tell colleague to butt out over pronounciation issue?

[frustratedpomegranate]

Colleague A started in our team around 3 years ago. She has an uncommon first name and we asked her at the start how to pronounce it and she told us. I've heard her on the phone and interacting with other staff hundreds of times and we say it the same way she does.

Colleague B started about four months ago and when introduced to A, she said 'isn't your name pronounced XYZ'. Colleague A said no, she says pronounces it ABC. B said she knew someone else with A's name and insisted it was XYZ.

B continues to pronounce A's name the way she thinks it should be (its quite different to what the rest of us are saying) and frequently corrects the rest of us when referring to A. We have spoken to A about it but she's very non confrontational and says she doesn't mind B's insistence and doesn't want to speak to her about it. B has quite an aggressive personality and has been prone to outbursts in the office a few times in the short while she's been with us so nobody is really sure what to do.

There are two issues:

1. she misprounces A's name but A doesn't mind. Ignore that, it's not a problem.
2. she corrects everyone else when they pronounce A's name properly. That's out of order.

I'd start by doing a varient of what a pp suggested. Whenever she corrects you stop, pause, then repeat the name with the correct pronunciation. If she makes an issue of it I'd sate that whilst A isn't bothered by B getting it wrong you will not disrespect her in the same way.

If she continues to make a fuss complain to your line manager about the fact she keeps picking on you in this fashion. (Keep A and everyone else out of it.)

I had something similar. My parents called me 'Clare', when I was studying in Italy I went by Chiara, DP (who I met in Italy) calls me Clara as that's what is common in his home country. I really don't mind which people use, which is my perogative.

One day a fellow student in Italy came over to me and asked me my name. This was odd, as she'd known me well for many months by then, but replied in Italian, the language she'd used, "Mi chiamo Chiara." She replied that that's what she thought, but DP was referring to me as Clara (as always, everyone knew who he meant) and she stormed off to correct him. I was gobsmacked. How could she think she could correct my DP who had known me much longer than her??? I called her back and said my name was actually Clare but both Chiara and Clara were perfectly fine as alternatives and to keep her butt out.

B needs to be out on her ear since she's been there 2 minutes and already proved she's an arsehole.

She won't get better with having more rights once she's done 2 years.

The very least someone can do is pronounce a colleague's name correctly, it is common courtesy. She has been told and is not the 'new bod' any more. She is lucky the other person is not too bothered about it.

When I was at school there was a girl (she won't be on here, I know that), with a Polish surname pronounced 'Obwoy'; the deputy headmistress called her 'Ooblee' throughout my time at the school. Dreadful.

I really think you need to raise this. Colleague B trying to convince others that Colleague A pronounces her own name incorrectly is gaslighting! Absolutely bullying and I’d put a stop to that under any circumstances. I’ve had this all my life, I say my name and it gets repeated back to me incorrectly or changed to something similar. Bonkers.

I know a Siân who says her name is pronounced Cyan. Not a problem , but the amount of people who ask her 'Are you sure?' when they see her name badge.

I think the “I know A has already told you she pronounces her name ABC. You’re coming across as bullying now.” Is a good way to handle it when B talks directly to you.

But I also think flagging it to their manager along with the outbursts is important. The name thing seems like only one part of a bigger issue.

I've been A. What looked like chilled acceptance and non-confrontational behaviour from me was actually well-masked frustration and gut-twisting, embarrassed anxiety over how to address it. And the longer it went on the harder it was to address it.

20y on I couldn't care less what people think and I correct them if they decide my name should be pronounced their way and not mine.

20y so I would have appreciated someone dealing with the bully. Because that's what it felt like: bullying. There's nothing 'micro-aggression' about it. It's straight up bullying.

Of course, I'm projecting my own feelings on to your colleague. She may genuinely not care, or even be silently laughing at twat-colleague.

I'd either correct her, every fucking time.

Or, every time she says something about XYZ, I'd say I don't know who that is. Not a clue who she means. No one by that name works there.

I think it's paramount that you respect A's wishes how to handle this.

Tempting as the passive aggressive shit is, I don't think A would feel comfortable that you did that on her behalf.

You can reasonably tell A that you feel B is an aggressive twat, but you shouldn't pick a fight A doesn't want to be at centre of.

@Namechangehereandnow

Hmm … depends on if it’s actually different or just dialect.

So Mia can be pronounced My-a or Me-a - they’re 2 different names, so if it’s this, then that’s absolutely unacceptable of person B.

Kieran - I pronounce Kee-ran, dh Kia (as in the car)-ran. That’s the same name but local/personal dialect/way of talking. So if it’s this, person B is not being unreasonable.

I know what you're saying, but don't think Kieran is the best example to use. There are a few different spelling and pronunciation variants for this name, and people aren't consistent with their use, so quite like Mia in that regard.

I'd assume that B is just really stupid and would be tempted to patronise her by spelling out the pronunciation of any medium-long words when I said them - like you would when teaching a toddler or a foreigner learning your language.

If she responds angrily and asks why you keep doing that, look surprised and say "Oh, I know you struggle a lot more than anybody else to pronounce words and names, so I just thought it was a discreet way of helping you." PA? Yes; but far less than she is being.

I also believe that it isn't that A 'doesn't mind' but rather that she's not willing to put her head above the parapet and challenge a bully. Nobody is happy with being called by a different name from their actual one, unless it's a nickname/abbreviation that they commonly go by - in which case everybody would routinely call them that.

It really does take a very special kind of arrogance to consistently tell somebody that they don't know how they want their own name to be pronounced, and that they're mistaken when they inform everybody of the correct way.

You can reasonably tell A that you feel B is an aggressive twat, but you shouldn't pick a fight A doesn't want to be at centre of.

How can you be sure that A doesn't want it to be addressed, though? Would you feel the same if it were a young Asian new starter at a junior level called Sandeep, and some middle-manager racist bully decided that it would be 'hilarious' to keep calling them 'Sandpaper'?

It's extremely unusual for people to actually like others to deliberately and repeatedly mispronounce their name - even if the mispronunciation is a legitimate other name/pronunciation and not an insult at all, it still isn't their name.

@diddl

"So if it’s the Mia scenario that’s rude, if it’s the Kieran scenario that’s not rude."

Sorry yes I hadn't read your post properly.

If you're saying "Kieran" but your accent makes it sound different then there's not much you can do about that.

That’s exactly what I mean. Me and dh pronounce Kieran differently - were both saying Kieran but it sounds different. Whereas I would not call some Me-a if they are called My-a.

It's extremely unusual for people to actually like others to deliberately and repeatedly mispronounce their name - even if the mispronunciation is a legitimate other name/pronunciation and not an insult at all, it still isn't their name
Agree with this. People might tolerate someone getting pronunciation wrong a little, but after a few occasions it's probably going to annoy them.
I highly doubt anyone is happy for a bully to actively encourage other people to misnamed someone.

Too often bullies rely on other people saying nothing because the victim doesn't want to make a scene.

Addressing B's unprofessional behaviour in the workplace doesn't mean fighting A's battles or speaking on A's behalf. It's totally reasonable for people to want to work in a polite and respectful environment. Toxic behaviour towards colleagues undermines positive professional relationships.

@BrightYellowDaffodil

Kieran - I pronounce Kee-ran, dh Kia (as in the car)-ran.

@Namechangehereandnow So you think your pronunciation should trump that of the actual owner of the name, based on what you feel is the correct pronunciation? I’ve known several Sians, all bar one of whom have pronounced their name “Shaan”. One, however, pronounces it “Si-an”. Should I tell her she’s wrong?

Don’t be stupid, that’s not what I’m saying at all.

lizzie - I used Kieran because that’s 1 name dh and I pronounce differently. We both are saying the same name, but our individual way of pronouncing makes it sound different to each other.

PP: How can you be sure that A doesn't want it to be addressed, though?

I guess I believed OP when she said

"We have spoken to A about it ... she doesn't mind B's insistence and doesn't want to speak to her about it. "

also

"A has said she doesn't mind B correcting everyone."

I mean, maybe PP was also there or has special mind-reading powers wouldn't be the first on MN to say they do. I do NOT have special powers, I just took OP at her word. I thought maybe OP actually knows A and really did speak to A and actually has faithfully reported what A said she wants or doesn't want. I definitely don't know anything except what I can see OP wrote here on this thread.

Actually I do know one other thing -- I'd be cheesed off myself to be dragged into someone else's feud. I'd be annoyed if I were A and my situation was used for someone else to pick an argument with B. tbf, that's just me. MNers sound like they just love to start arguments half the time.

@Afraidofninja

I would act on my own behalf and complain that I was being bullied into pronouncing A's name wrong. Her behaviour is disruptive in the workplace, it's a shame that A doesn't want to do anything about it, but it's affecting you as well. My sister has an unusual name that can be pronounced more than one way. One of her colleagues insisted on using the wrong pronunciation, even though nobody around her did that and she'd been told. That was until she answered the phone to me and - using different names obviously - I asked to speak to Alicia and she said "Oh, you mean Aleesha". I told her in no uncertain terms that I knew how to pronounce my sister's name correctly and I would expect the people she worked with to know how to as well.

One of my daughter's is Alicia and one of her teachers pronounced her name wrong - she didn't correct her (I think she had a few times and gave us) One of the girls who had known her since she was 3 came up to her after class, horrified saying 'Have I been saying your name wrong for years' She pointed out that everyone else said it right, the teacher was wrong - but the point being a child knew that it's important to say a persons name correctly

I simply do not believe anybody would genuinely not mind that their colleague goes around and tells other people that the person is wrong about their own name, and they should be called as the colleague prefers. That's just massively weird.

I guess I believed OP when she said

"We have spoken to A about it ... she doesn't mind B's insistence and doesn't want to speak to her about it. "

also

"A has said she doesn't mind B correcting everyone."

So do you really think that, every time somebody says "I don't want to talk to you/her/him about it", that's their simple way of saying that everything is fine? Some people genuinely fear confrontation, especially when they know the other person is acting like a bully - doesn't necessarily mean they're smiley and happy about it at all.

The second quote is even more stark: in what world would anybody genuinely be happy for somebody else to 'correct' people from using their name correctly and badger/bully them to change it to something deliberately incorrect? Not even being understanding/resigned to that individual person always getting it wrong themselves, but supposedly being happy for somebody to arbitrarily give them a new name/pronunciation and then insist on everybody else using this new name instead of their actual name? Seriously??

Some of these posts remind of the wonderful writer Maya Angelou. She was born Marguerite but when she worked as a servant as a teenager, her employer insisted on calling her Margaret.

Band together, insist B's name is wrong and all start pronouncing it in the cringiest sounding way possible, because colleague C's cousins best mate pronounces it that way soooooo clearly she's the one getting it wrong. Don't stop until she does.

At least, that's what i'd want to do, but best avoid the "bullying" allegations she'd probably make. Just look at her bemused and say you don't know anyone by that name in the office when she pronounces it wrong.

Sigh, Ok, sure, OP should have this conversation with A:

OP: "Hey you know how bossy B keeps saying your name wrong?"
A: "yeah..."
OP: "B is a patronising bully doing micro-aggressions! We're going to (take xyz actions)."
A: "I'm not comfortable making an issue out of this."
Colleague 1: "Oh dear, we know you just don't want to put your head above the parapet."
A: "i didn't say that..."
Colleague 2: "You can't actually like others deliberately and repeatedly mispronouncing your name --"
A: "I don't mind."
Colleague 1: "Yes but, we know that your chilled acceptance and non-confrontational behaviour is actually well-masked frustration and gut-twisting, embarrassed anxiety."
A: "You know my feelings better than me?"
Colleague 2: "Besides, Toxic behaviour towards colleagues undermines positive professional relationships."
A: "But I didn't feel like it was toxic --"
OP: "It isn't really up to you. We can't turn a blind eye. "
A: "It isn't up to me what happens, about something so trivial?"
Colleague 1: "We reckon you're just concerned that the bullying will escalate if you complain."
A: "You know my concerns better than me?"

yeah sure, you have that conversation, OP. Report back, let us know how it went.

ps: What others said, OP talking to line manager about OP feeling harassed in how B insists her pronunciation should be used, this is in realms of very reasonable.

Is A of an ethnic heritage?

I would be annoyed at being treated like I don’t have a mind of my own.

My mum does this. I'm pretty sure if she was going through school now she would have and ASD diagnosis. She does not like names that don't read like they are produced so deliberately says it wrongly (Siobhan she would pronounce exactly as it sounds). I ignore her until she says it properly, so if we were discussing someone called Isla she will pronounce the s and I'll stare at her blankly until she has to correct herself. Drives her mad. Called my son Ruaridh, mostly because I like the name but also because it drives her mad.