Why do people from poorer backgrounds have low aspirations

[suggestedlogin]

I may not be explaining myself well here so please bear with me!

I've seen on here a few times where it's been mentioned that people from poorer backgrounds / deprived areas don't have higher aspirations. It seems they can do better but don't.

Just wondering why this is and what would help to change it.

Reason I'm asking is I'm from a por background and I still am. I don't want this for my kids but don't know how or what to do to change it.

I don't have the time to read through this whole thread! But what an interesting question OP.

For me, University was never mentioned. My parents saw it as a 'waste of money' and to be fair, with my grades I wouldn't have got in anyway!

Both my parents left school at the age of 12/13. Helped out at home until they were a bit older then came to the UK (from Ireland).

I knew that my parents wanted more for me and my brother than what they had, but they put me and my sister off learning because if we didn't 'get' what they were trying to teach us, we'd see their frustration and anger. It affected our self esteem. They would also say "you don't want to learn" which was awful.

My dad tried so hard to teach me Maths, but he'd get angry and it put me off for life. He also taught me differently to how school did, so when they were teaching me I was so confused and I just gave up/- thinking I was shit at Maths.

I think I do have some learning difficulties, although I did ok in English, and I ended up as a Veterinary Nurse.

Because of my parents, I now avoid trying to teach my kids Maths. They're only little still, not even in school yet. But I don't want my negative feelings towards it to put them off. I will be mentioning university as they grow up...I'm desperate for them to not be like me...

Because I didn't do well in my GCSE's, it has affected the whole of my life and future prospects. I'd love to study to do something else but I can't get onto any courses because I don't have my Maths. I really want my kids to get the grades they need to be able to have more open doors in their future.

I do feel like I've failed at life! My DH had a totally different, middle class upbringing. So hopefully we will be a good balanced match parenting wise...although I will admit I want them to be more like him.

*don't know why I wrote brother! Sister.

I do feel like I've failed at life! My DH had a totally different, middle class upbringing. So hopefully we will be a good balanced match parenting wise...although I will admit I want them to be more like him.

You’re a veterinary nurse - a job which I imagine gives you great satisfaction and joy (and which is terribly competitive to get into) You really needn’t think you’ve failed at life, at all.

I have a decent memory for usernames and recognise several names who’ve posted on this thread about their work ethic and grafting their way up from WC backgrounds to six figure salaries doing 12-14 hour days etc, who’ve previously posted on other threads about having had nervous breakdowns along the way, been crippled by stress, lost relationships and so on. And that doesn’t sound like success to me - it sounds like an absolutely unfair situation that working class people fine themselves in where they have to graft so hard it makes them unwell, just to get the same rewards which more affluent children will achieve with much less graft and pain.

I don't think it is a wc thing to want your kids to be happy in a job. Neither of my parents expected to be happy at work; work is something you do to pay the bills. So ideally, you get a good job. However
for my parents, teacher or some vague job 'working for the council' was pretty much hitting the jackpot.

The 'I just want my kids to be happy' idea doesn't take work into account. It's more about being content with your lot, because it's pretty much accepted that the working hours are shit. I think doing a job that makes you happy is a much more mc idea, because it implies space to decide what to do and to be able to afford to make mistakes.

Because I didn't do well in my GCSE's, it has affected the whole of my life and future prospects. I'd love to study to do something else but I can't get onto any courses because I don't have my Maths. I really want my kids to get the grades they need to be able to have more open doors in their future.

A woman over the road from me was similar. She took an Access course and discovered she was outstanding at Maths once she was being taught and not traumatised. Long story short through Access and other programmes she was accepted to university (in her 40s) and is now studying a degree in data science.

Well good for you. Did you do all that on your own or did your parents encourage you into swimming, drama, your studies? Was your job an addition to your cv or because your family needed the money?
All at bit in the middle really. The swimming was my thing (just lengths in the pool), my parents supported the drama, they attended performances and stuff, had to get myself to class/ rehearsals and home.

Honestly all the teenagers I knew had Saturday jobs, my DM had had one, it was just what you did. It paid for clothes, nights out, take always and domestics.My parents paid my bus fare to college and I wasn't expected to pay board.

She’s doesn’t mean ‘city’ in that way. It’s a professional and business term.

Ah, business is not my thing! It was the way it was right after "got me out if my small Northern village" that made me think she meant into a city.

I don't see that a small Northern village is something you need to escape. But, that just shows that people want different things in life.

“@UnevenBooks
I don't see that a small Northern village is something you need to escape. But, that just shows that people want different things in life.”

It might be lovely in a village, but it can be difficult to live in an ex Northern Mining village, for example, if all the jobs have gone.
Not that I know that was the case for the poster who got away.

Why is university and a professional job being held up as the pinnacle of aspiration? These days many trades pay better than many professional jobs. Graduates are ten a penny these days, unless you're going into something like medicine or IT.
Even law isn't the reliably high paid job it once was, for younger people at least, as there are far more candidates than jobs available. I know law graduates working in retail or relatively low paid high street practices, who have been unable to move up. Not everyone can or should move to London either.
Qualifying in a sought-after trade and staying in your local area is a valid choice, it doesn't mean you're unambitious! One poster mentioned that their family all live within 10 minutes of each other, like it's a bad thing. There's a lot to be said for community and a close-knit extended family network.
I say this as a graduate who has lived in various countries and all around the UK.

"Why is university and a professional job being held up as the pinnacle of aspiration? These days many trades pay better than many professional jobs. "

People go on about trades all the time. You're hardly the first person to point out that plumbers earn a lot of money. Life satisfaction isn't just about money though and some people want to pursue education for the interest of it and with the hope of getting a job they would find interesting afterwards.
And not everyone can be a highly paid tradesperson either. Yes, the self-employed plumber makes good money, but look at what those who work for them get, or the apprentices. You wouldn't be able to re-train later in life on that wage.

@RidingMyBike

The OU used to be a lot cheaper than it is now. I did a couple of stand-alone modules years ago that were very very cheap but the cost now is very high, which, again, puts it out of reach of a lot. Plus you need computer and internet access to be able to do it.

Yes, the cost is a problem, but it's still much cheaper than giving up your job and going to study in a brick uni.

@Gwenhwyfar But we aren't talking about people who want to pursue education, the OP was talking about poor kids who have "low aspirations" and how to raise them. Then everyone started talking about education and university, as though pushing kids into higher education is the only way to give them a good future. I'm not saying everyone should be a plumber. But not all kids are interested in academic learning or want/can afford to go to university. Learning a trade or acquiring some other vocational skill is a good, realistic prospect for these kids. It doesn't have to be either university or a life of poverty.

@SweetFelicityArkright

I've actually found this thread quite interesting in that the reasons for people having low aspirations and therefore ending up in low paid, low regarded jobs are discussed, and no one has really considered that maybe we need those jobs for society, business and services to function, to create the opportunities for those who want to and are able to do better, to do so, and that they are not valued for the contribution that they are making.

Those roles are pretty much written off, yet are essential to getting the actual work done, there's no point having a manager if they've got no one to manage because everyone is at the same level, someone is still needed to do the work that supports the whole thing.
I'm not saying that no one that is poor shouldn't have aspirations or be discouraged from achieving them, more that maybe we should be valuing and respecting the work of those at the bottom, in the lower paid jobs more, as much as those at the top and everyone in between, and not using their low aspirations as a reason to pay low wages and have little respect for them.
I work for nmw, I actually really like the job I do, I'm good at it and I am contributing to society, unfortunately although I am not really bothered about a massive house and Carribbean cruise every year, meeting the cost of living is an issue, the basics and a little more that makes life worth living and I am by and large looked down upon, seen as uninspired and having low or no aspirations and therefore less worthy of respect than the owner of the business I work in, where my time and skills make them money, but they choose how much of that I get.

Maybe alongside looking at the reasons why those from poor backgrounds are less aspirational than those from more affluent backgrounds (because it does highlight the inequality that exists and that is the first step in addressing that) we could be looking at why we value some people more than others, based on whether they went to university or not, or the content of their wage.

I completely agree that without the low skill jobs being filled we couldn’t function as a society. What irks me with this ideology is that people are financially punished and ostracised from certain experiences and opportunities for committing to a lifetime of work as a cleaner, road sweeper, waitress or shelf stacker.

Yes the northern town I’m from provides large numbers of low skilled staff for the nearest city, but the living situation for most of them is bordering on poverty and misery. Yet without their work many services and businesses would not be able to function.

@lifesabitchandthenyoudie - I agree with some of what you say re satisfaction. Many of my family live modest lives but have family, friends, low stress jobs. Some of them were definitely smart enough to be able to go to uni and do a graduate job but while they are proud of me, it’s not necessarily something they want to sacrifice a lot to achieve themselves. I think that’s fair enough tbh.

But we aren't talking about people who want to pursue education, the OP was talking about poor kids who have "low aspirations" and how to raise them. Then everyone started talking about education and university, as though pushing kids into higher education is the only way to give them a good future

I do think we have gone backwards in many areas, where the only access to some careers is via university.

You used to be able to get a job as tea boy and work your way up. Now the glass ceiling is very low for those with no degree.

You could start as an apprentice electrician, and work your way up to management on a corporate board, if necessary doing your degree with the OU or pt on the way up. Same with paramedics, nurses, lawyers, accountants, all could start as basic admin and those with intelligence and drive could rise. Police now too are becoming graduate entry.

In my northern town is was a huge deal to get a job with m&s, as it was well known that a shop assistant could access management schemes from within and end up with a very high paid corporate position, anywhere in the world. It was seen as a huge opportunity, especially for girls.

Now you’re competing against graduates in those admin jobs, so if your background doesn’t allow uni first you’re at a big disadvantage.

Maybe if we went back to that style of employment more people would get opportunities.

The labelling theory, lack of opportunities, low self esteem, generational trends, poverty, abuse, neglect.... It is the cycle of society, it is hard to break and not their fault, it is society's fault as a whole.

@CayrolBaaaskin yes, it would be nice if we celebrated Education instead of marks attained. Then perhaps we would have schools that Educated our children instead of forcing them into the box. AND if we celebrated everyone in society, honoured all contributors and (Shock Horror"!) paid them with more equivalency so that 'unskilled' (!) jobs were not at poverty level. ALSO if we honoured our carers above footballers...

you might say I'm a dreamer... but I'm not the only one...

I would drop the term 'better yourselves' from your speech and your thoughts. It implies they're in a lowly state at present, and that's not a nice thing to believe about yourself.

Encourage your children to be true to themselves and to work to reach their own unique potential. Remind them in school that they are working for themselves, not their teachers, and not to impress their peers. Remind them when peer pressure starts to kick on that there is a far bigger world out there

Always model curiosity and a desire to learn and question and think deeply about information, about the media, about what politicians are saying, about music, art, and books, social media, etc.

Ask your children for their thoughts and help them feel their thoughts are important, that having an opinion they have thought about is important. Have friendly discussions about all sorts of topics. When they make a statement, ask them questions about it - what evidence is there for it, is that something you agree with, etc.

If you can't see it, you don't think you can be it.

Agree with @BowerOfBramble, especially 'be pushy', and the importance of finding positive networks for your DCs.

@mathanxiety

I would drop the term 'better yourselves' from your speech and your thoughts. It implies they're in a lowly state at present, and that's not a nice thing to believe about yourself.

Encourage your children to be true to themselves and to work to reach their own unique potential. Remind them in school that they are working for themselves, not their teachers, and not to impress their peers. Remind them when peer pressure starts to kick on that there is a far bigger world out there

Always model curiosity and a desire to learn and question and think deeply about information, about the media, about what politicians are saying, about music, art, and books, social media, etc.

Ask your children for their thoughts and help them feel their thoughts are important, that having an opinion they have thought about is important. Have friendly discussions about all sorts of topics. When they make a statement, ask them questions about it - what evidence is there for it, is that something you agree with, etc.

I like this.

As a dyslexic (diagnosed at 38, but better late than never), I have not been able to give examples of my own academic success to my child, but I have been very open about MY failings. Hopefully, by avoiding some of the disasters that have befallen me, more opportunities will present themselves.

My lousy experience as a student, resulted in me being very good as a teacher when I taught my profession in an FE college for five years as a hobby. I treated every lesson as though it might be the last one that the students might have, despite my official mentor telling me that it was entirely acceptable to make statements in year 1 that might be contradicted in year 2.

It makes me angry when supposedly professional educators cut corners to make a syllabus supposedly more intelligible. My daughter is a scientist and she found the different versions of the truth between GCSE, A-Level and degree courses in a subject that she is passionate about hugely unhelpful.

@Nomoreusernames1244

But we aren't talking about people who want to pursue education, the OP was talking about poor kids who have "low aspirations" and how to raise them. Then everyone started talking about education and university, as though pushing kids into higher education is the only way to give them a good future

I do think we have gone backwards in many areas, where the only access to some careers is via university.

You used to be able to get a job as tea boy and work your way up. Now the glass ceiling is very low for those with no degree.

You could start as an apprentice electrician, and work your way up to management on a corporate board, if necessary doing your degree with the OU or pt on the way up. Same with paramedics, nurses, lawyers, accountants, all could start as basic admin and those with intelligence and drive could rise. Police now too are becoming graduate entry.

In my northern town is was a huge deal to get a job with m&s, as it was well known that a shop assistant could access management schemes from within and end up with a very high paid corporate position, anywhere in the world. It was seen as a huge opportunity, especially for girls.

Now you’re competing against graduates in those admin jobs, so if your background doesn’t allow uni first you’re at a big disadvantage.

Maybe if we went back to that style of employment more people would get opportunities.

Agree absolutely with what you say. Don’t Macdonalds offer a route to management for their staff? Or have I misremembered that? I think there should be a lot more opportunities like that, so you’re not cut off from opportunities because of those early decisions or lack of opportunities.

Your aspirations and expectations are built from those you are surrounded by. So if you are surrounded by high achievers, you will assume that is the norm, and aspire to similar. My dad was a mechanic and my mum worked as a shop cashier, and none of their friends had degrees or professional jobs, so that was my 'norm'.

That said, as a PP has stated, often a child can have high aspirations but due to their circumstances find it much more difficult than a more privileged peer to achieve.

But finally, it is worth remembering that an awareness of these challenges can lead to a sense of perseverance and determination. I ended up with a PhD and a well-paying professional job despite my background, partly because I KNEW I had to fight for it (although I acknowledge a lot of other factors, and luck, played into that).

@Nomoreusernames1244

She’s doesn’t mean ‘city’ in that way. It’s a professional and business term

And again you highlight the difference between those who come from backgrounds where this is not common knowledge, and those who do.

If you don’t know “the city” as a professional and business term, how do you know that you can aim for the 6 figure salary “in the city”?

Wow, how reductive to write someone off for this. That’s not empathy or understanding, it’s a covert way of telling people that they’re doomed to failure. Classic trait shown by so-called progressives. By the way, there are other other aspirational careers outside the ‘city’. You don’t have to know what ‘city’ means to be successful or aspirational.