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Just fuck off with this fucking war shit.

256 replies

NaiceHamAndHugs · 19/02/2022 22:19

Why as humans do we never ever learn? It’s always about testosterone and power and oil.

Fuck off with. Why was it possible for so many countries to pull together when COVID kicked off and now it’s back to slapping their balls on the table to see who has the biggest set.

It just all so unbelievably depressing.

OP posts:
Tealightsandd · 20/02/2022 17:50

@Tabbacous

I don't think people are calling for billions to be spent are they? By your learning to live with it comment I presume you are comparing a country being invaded by a hostile force to covid (which both countries are affected by on top) which is bloody weird and ignorant.

with a significant proportion of the working age population disabled by Long Covid

Any studies, evidence or whatever else to back up this claim that this is likely to be the case? Not overly arsed what US, a complex and very different country is doing about covid laws to be honest.

You can be as not overly arsed about America as you like, but for the purposes of this current issue (the geopolitics and tensions wrt Russia Ukraine) America, as a leading NATO member, is very much involved.

And, in what way is the comparison wrt 'living with' SARS-COV-2 'weird and ignorant?

I'll leave it after this post, as this thread isn't on the Covid board and I don't want to derail (plus I need to get some cooking done now), but, really, how ridiculous to ignore the very relevant issue of 'living with' a still new and evolving highly contagious disease that can kill and disable many.

If you believe Long Covid disablity hasn't any relevance to national defence and security (including economic) you need to think again.

Alexandra2001 · 20/02/2022 17:52

@Yeahthat

Exactly, the USA threatened nuclear war when the USSR tried to put missiles in Cuba.
Yet we think its fine to put missile systems and other armaments in former soviet states like Poland and Estonia etc.

Look at the invasions NATO has been involved in and then with a straight face, say its a "defence alliance only"

Tabbacous · 20/02/2022 17:53

Ah bless you, I've heard covid mentioned in relation to a lot of things but this is something else.

Grantanow · 20/02/2022 17:57

I think it's short sighted to ascribe the Ukraine issue to male competition. There are serious concerns on both sides which need to be addressed.

ivykaty44 · 20/02/2022 18:11

But this is the issue, so Ukraine should be bullied into remaining vulnerable and not being in a position to defend their country if needed because putin might get upset? Do you think everyone should continue to appease him at the expense of other countries as its easier for us?

So why did NATO give their assurances this wouldn't happen? Why did they promise something and now they are going to ignore that promise and you're saying its not the west that is at fault

its one thing to ignore a promise but another to the blame Russia for the broken promises of NATO

ChardonnaysPetDragon · 20/02/2022 18:32

Actually, it's true that what's happening now is a reverse Cuba crisis.

FatFredsFriedEgg · 20/02/2022 18:52

@ivykaty44

But this is the issue, so Ukraine should be bullied into remaining vulnerable and not being in a position to defend their country if needed because putin might get upset? Do you think everyone should continue to appease him at the expense of other countries as its easier for us?

So why did NATO give their assurances this wouldn't happen? Why did they promise something and now they are going to ignore that promise and you're saying its not the west that is at fault

its one thing to ignore a promise but another to the blame Russia for the broken promises of NATO

Did Russia not ignore the assurances given in the Budapest Memorandum when they invaded Crimea?
Zotter · 20/02/2022 20:02

This article by emeritus Professor Paul Rogers gives some detail if of interest. Quoting some paragraphs below. As always, know situation v complex and academics in this area share different views on the v worrying situation..

www.opendemocracy.net/en/odr/russia-ukraine-crisis-whats-next-paul-rogers/

“When it comes to Russia, the safest assumption must be that the crisis stems from President Putin’s determination to put the country back in the superpower bracket, but this does not mean that Putin wants a full-scale war over Ukraine. To people of Putin’s generation, the way Russia was treated with near contempt after the collapse of the Soviet system 30 years ago still rankles, and it is surprising how few Western commentators factor this in.”

“Adding to the resentment is NATO’s slow encroachment into countries that much of Russia’s political elite still considers its ‘near abroad’ – with Ukraine being the main focus but also Poland and Romania. For example, one of the key elements currently sparking discontent is the US decision to establish anti-ballistic missile batteries at Redzikowo in Poland and Deveselu in Romania, using the Aegis Ashore system. Currently under construction, this combines advanced radar systems with interceptor rockets and has the stated purpose of protecting the West from ballistic missiles launched by ‘rogue states’ such as Iran. Moscow fears, though, that the Aegis system’s MK 41 launcher can readily be used for the Tomahawk cruise missile, the successor to the missiles of Greenham Common fame, for attacks on Russia itself.”

This raises questions over how far Putin intends to take the current crisis and whether there is actually a risk of a major war in Europe. One of the problems with Biden’s emphasis on releasing US intelligence about Russia’s military build-up is that it is relatively raw data, with the White House offering little interpretation from its own intelligence analysts. A relevant perspective on this is offered by the usually well-informed Jane’s Defence Weekly magazine. This reported on Tuesday, the day before the US predicted war, that:

“There appears to be little indication that Russian armed forces are mobilising en masse for a major war against Ukraine. A limited operation to support pro-Russian forces in the Donetsk and Luhansk regions appears more likely. [...]

“A significant Russian incursion against Ukraine would risk escalating into a major conventional conflict in which Russian troops would require substantial logistic support consisting of huge quantities of ammunition and fuel, as well as the activation of medical support facilities to deal with largescale casualties.”

Article goes on to say incursions in East Ukraine more likely but adds

“ In a sense, the two belligerents, Russia and NATO, are now locked into a thoroughly unstable embrace, always with the risk of unplanned escalations. It is a classic case of that annoying acronym AIM – accidents, incidents or mavericks – that can turn a crisis into something much worse. Mavericks in this case could be renegade pro-Russian militias in Donbas but could just as easily be some of Ukraine’s far-Right militias.”

Ionlydomassiveones · 20/02/2022 20:10

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn at the poster's request.

Zotter · 20/02/2022 20:21

I think those saying Boris is planning war to detract from party gate etc vastly inflate our sway and importance on the world stage.

Agree UK’s influence limited but Johnson certainly ramping up the war rhetoric as helps him currently. Typical of him to be so irresponsible.

One group benefiting are our British arms companies, all this tension will be good for sales. Grim. Not saying they caused it but they won’t dislike it.

Staffy1 · 20/02/2022 20:40

@FourChimneys

Anyone else wish more women were in charge of the world? There would be far less willy waving for a start.
Yes.
Dishh · 20/02/2022 23:46

@Zotter

I think those saying Boris is planning war to detract from party gate etc vastly inflate our sway and importance on the world stage.

Agree UK’s influence limited but Johnson certainly ramping up the war rhetoric as helps him currently. Typical of him to be so irresponsible.

One group benefiting are our British arms companies, all this tension will be good for sales. Grim. Not saying they caused it but they won’t dislike it.

It might be interesting for some on this thread to note that Britain is the home of the largest defence contractors (including weapons) in Europe. Its contracts total many billions.

Yeahthat · 20/02/2022 23:55

@Dishh

Insane theory.

"Planning a war to distract from party gate"

One: He has no control over what Putin does or doesn't do.

Two: War with Russia would be a disaster of such epic proportions that yes, it would distract from party gate - and also guarantee that he'd lose the next election and probably end up more reviled than Blair over Iraq and Afghanistan.

It's delusional to see what's going on in Ukraine through the lens of domestic UK politics or your antipathy towards Johnson.

ivykaty44 · 21/02/2022 00:01

Did Russia not ignore the assurances given in the Budapest Memorandum when they invaded Crimea?

yes indeed they did and added to that it was a violation under international law

ivykaty44 · 21/02/2022 00:05

Insane theory.

"Planning a war to distract from party gate"

One: He has no control over what Putin does or doesn't do.

There is nothing to stop a politician using a situation to their own advantage, one to cover and also to gain from.He wouldn't be the first or last to do so. Not planning a war or controlling another countries actions but taking advantage of particular outcomes

Yeahthat · 21/02/2022 00:17

@ivykaty44

Insane theory.

"Planning a war to distract from party gate"

One: He has no control over what Putin does or doesn't do.

There is nothing to stop a politician using a situation to their own advantage, one to cover and also to gain from.He wouldn't be the first or last to do so. Not planning a war or controlling another countries actions but taking advantage of particular outcomes

He's simultaneously an incompetent buffoon, but also such a machiavellian strategic genius that he's able to orchestrate a war, in order to distract from him having eaten a slice of cake in the garden of Number 10?

He would gain absolutely nothing from a war in Ukraine, which would be nothing short of disastrous for the whole of Europe.

No one would be voting for him due to it at the next election, anymore than anyone voted for Blair in praise of the disaster of Iraq.

This is nonsensical.

Yeahthat · 21/02/2022 00:23

@ivykaty44

"I may have illegally eaten cake in the garden of Number 10, but on the plus side I also orchestrated a war which has irreparably damaged your living standards for a generation and created a massive influx of refugees"

It wouldn't benefit him at all.

Elsewhere I've also seen Americans attributing events in Ukraine to the US mid terms approaching. Here, it's partgate. It strikes me as a sort of egotism to only be able to see events on the international stage through the lens of your own country's domestic politics.

Dishh · 21/02/2022 00:54

[quote Yeahthat]@Dishh

Insane theory.

"Planning a war to distract from party gate"

One: He has no control over what Putin does or doesn't do.

Two: War with Russia would be a disaster of such epic proportions that yes, it would distract from party gate - and also guarantee that he'd lose the next election and probably end up more reviled than Blair over Iraq and Afghanistan.

It's delusional to see what's going on in Ukraine through the lens of domestic UK politics or your antipathy towards Johnson.[/quote]

You might want to try reading before replying. My reply was the the part at the bottom about the defence contractor; it had nothing to do with Boris. I find any 'distraction' discussion re:Boris vacous.

ivykaty44 · 21/02/2022 01:35

Yeahthat

You keep using the word orchestrated, in my post I didn’t write or indicate BJ orchestrating a situation - I actually wrote, not planning

ChardonnaysPetDragon · 21/02/2022 07:54

It's delusional to see what's going on in Ukraine through the lens of domestic UK politics or your antipathy towards Johnson.

He seems to be talking very tough and he's very much a hawk in this.

I don't like Macron as well, but he's been working to calm down the situation, unlike Boris.

Yeahthat · 21/02/2022 09:10

@ChardonnaysPetDragon

I agree Macron has thus far worked effectively to bring about a peaceful resolution.

Regarding Boris - he can talk all he wants; he's an irrelevant sideshow who sent Truss to do a photoshoot and then embarrass herself by being unaware of even the basic geography of Russia.

He's not going to be the kingmaker in this, and whatever does or doesn't happen, he'll be irrelevant to it.

In addition, since war would be disastrous for all of Europe (everyone agrees on that) what could he possibly gain?

Mreggsworth · 21/02/2022 09:55

Guardian are reporting that have created a 'kill list' and have began positioning troops.

I dont understand why this is not being talked about more in places other than the news. I honestly don't understand much about the situation and why its happening (I'm trying to learn). But it seems horrific.

Sideorderofchips · 21/02/2022 10:16

I wonder if this is a game of brinkmanship by putin to prove how strong he is to the west

Alexandra2001 · 21/02/2022 10:16

@Yeahthat Agree BJ and the UK's influence is irrelevant BUT to the UK tory supporting press and its readership its not at all.

Talk of war etc detracts from his partygate issues and has given him the get out of saying "can't possibly resign as there could be a war in europe blah blah blah" and its already been used by his supporting ministers over the weekend.

Abhannmor · 21/02/2022 18:54

@Alexandra2001 that's a good plan. So I'm.sure NATO won't go for it.