To say the NHS should be privatised?

[Cheekypeach]

Preferably only partially, but still. I was talking about this with DH yesterday who is adamant it should stay as it is. I said I don’t think it can survive in its current form, and I for one would rather pay more and receive a better quality service. AIBU?

Why do people think privatisation would lead to better service? The private companies would be trying to make a profit (as legally required if they have shareholders) so something else would have to give to allow for that.

So bollocks to anybody who can't afford private care then, OP?

[quote ohfourfoxache]Go on….have another re questionable quality…..I’m feeling generous today!

www.hsj.co.uk/quality-and-performance/111-callers-eight-times-more-likely-to-abandon-calls-in-some-areas/7031924.article[/quote]
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@CorrBlimeyGG

What about the people that can't afford to pay, are you aware of the wider implications of not treating illness, to individuals and society?

Have you seen the cost of private cancer care?

But we can still have a safety net for those people- like Germany etc

What like dentistry?

Okay I lied… my last word is this. The Canadian health care system is generally excellent (or used to be). However, my Canadian BiL’s income above a national average baseline was taxed at 65% …. Can you ever imagine that happening here?

OP has convinced me. Privatise the NHS. Education, that's all rubbish. Police. Armed Services. Roads. Civil Service. Judges, prisons, MPs and parliament too though many would observe they are already most of the way there. We could have a large TV campaign and sweeten the deal with giving every adult a £100 share to remind everyone of the benefits of being a shareholding and home-owning democracy. Lots of fees for investment banks. Tell Sid. Sounds like a plan. The benefits for water, gas, electricity, BT and so on are unequivocal compared with before and compared with those backwards Western European nations that didn't privatise and, even worse, doubled down on their stupidity by buying UK utilities. How on earth they think they can have world-class utilities when they can't borrow money at enormous interest rates to connected parties to not invest in the UK then coincidentally not need to pay tax or invest enough.

@Psuedoshoes

So bollocks to anybody who can't afford private care then, OP?

Do you see people amputating their own limbs in Germany or France?

OP, it's not that there's an alternative that night be better though IMO it's the funding rather than the governance/structures. It's that there is no realistic trajectory to the Western European model you seem to favour and it's UK government policy to change things for the worse. Again, millions are being spent on lobbying by USA firms and USA trade negotiators will absolutely want health in play.

I think a high skilled, high wage Swiss economy would be better than the UKs. Perhaps French social solidarity. Scandinavian relative house prices. Perm any dimension you value. Any realistic trajectory to any of those in the short to medium term? Any confidence that a government in power for 12 years (4 in coalition with a supportive partner) will manage to achieve its levelling up goals in the next 8, by 2030.

@Cheekypeach Its been pointed out to you numerous times that France etc uses mainly a taxation based healthcare model.

@Pinkyxx
Latest OECD data shows France spends $5564 per capita. The UK spends $5268 per capita. The difference isn't as significant as is being implied

err $300 x 70million (uk pop.) is quite a lot actually and its year on year for decades, that adds up to a huge amount of extra funding in France's healthcare system.

Plus these figures inc what people personally spend on health insurance, a significant amount in the UK.

[quote Alexandra2001]@Cheekypeach Its been pointed out to you numerous times that France etc uses mainly a taxation based healthcare model.

@Pinkyxx
Latest OECD data shows France spends $5564 per capita. The UK spends $5268 per capita. The difference isn't as significant as is being implied

err $300 x 70million (uk pop.) is quite a lot actually and its year on year for decades, that adds up to a huge amount of extra funding in France's healthcare system.

Plus these figures inc what people personally spend on health insurance, a significant amount in the UK.[/quote]
Yes and I have responded to say my post was poorly worded, I mean more of a contributory or surcharge based healthcare system than ‘private’ per se. I can’t amend the OP so can’t do much about it

Your proposed charges are ridiculous.

The GP one would cost more to administer and they would stop the poor from accessing health care.

I suspect an unfortunately large proportion of my patients would be put off by any co-pay or payment. I see the fear in working patients now who don't have a pre-payment certificate when they need any script issuing. I doubt the increasing cost of fuel and utilities and food will make them be able to prioritise healthcare more. I see working parents missing meals so DC can be fed.

There is much I'd like to improve though if there's no realistic trajectory and powerful interests determined to make things worse and making progress now, I'd be careful opening that door. IMO, the problem is absolute funding, not structural.

Yes and I have responded to say my post was poorly worded, I mean more of a contributory or surcharge based healthcare system than ‘private’ per se. I can’t amend the OP so can’t do much about it

At the end of the day, staffing is what costs the NHS so much, we need X amount of staff regardless of whether its a private or or a public funded system.
Drugs and equipment (largely) are decided internationally... we would still need the same amount of buildings and beds.

So that leaves administration, is a multitude of different companies all with their own management structures etc going to employ less people and be more efficient than a centrally based based system?

One other thing, how would you ensure pay/TnC's equality across the country?
We've a large company called Livewell down here, working closely with the NHS, though pay is the same TnC's and pensions most definitely are not.

We need to get the level of care & staffing back up again first, then look at better ways of providing care - can't put the Horse before the Cart so to speak.

no, $300m x 70 million annually and the annual equivalent across long periods of time is just statistical noise and not significant. probably. Is anyone interested in my beautiful bridge. And NFT. And new crypto-asset?

European style would be good. American - where people die because they can't afford essential drugs or go bankrupt and lose their homes after medical care, definitely not.

Germany is one to emulate.

@Alexandra2001 I agree regarding transaction costs and some other parts but you might want to look at the 'international' price of medications. One of the dimensions that enrages the US trade negotiators and politicians is the price of medication the NHS secures centrally. In general, the central medication team in DHSC was regarded by some as unsung heroes who saved billions+ compared with what we'd pay if US trade negotiators get their way and it, plius healthcare delivery and participation by US health groups in general is absolutely in play now. It seems odd as no one forces the American health firms to sell at discounts here nor stops USA hospitals/HMOs? securing better pricing. Haven't looked at pricing the UK secures compared with other Western European nations but the pharmaceutical firms are quite strong on pricing confidentiality otherwise there'd be a race to the bottom to the benefit of governments.

Why can't we be more like western and northern Europe? With things like healthcare, utilities, housing, social security.

I have friends who work in the NHS. Management is utterly useless and corrupt. Not interested in change.

Switzerland's perhaps one to emulate about having a high wage high skills economy.

Norway for not selling off state oil companies and building a huge sovereign wealth fund to protect the nation against the future, compared with selling off the oil firms cheaply and consuming the oil revenues like a sailor in port.

France to not allowing workers to be exploited through zero-hours and gig economy work.

Some of the Scandinavian nations for relatively affordable house prices.

Japan for relatively low crime.

Some of the Scandinavian nations for a less corrupt criminal justice system.

Any realist short to medium term trajectory to achieving those? If not, is there one to a French or German health care system that arguably doesn't perform better than the NHS when funding envelope is taken into account and there are powerful interests already in train to deliver a USA system when that door is opened?

“ But I already pay towards NHS. Why should I pay twice?”

As a taxpayer you pay for lots of services you’ll never use. That’s how it all works.

@Tealightsandd

Why can't we be more like western and northern Europe? With things like healthcare, utilities, housing, social security.

With th exception of Switzerland, all the other European countries mentioned pay much higher levels of income tax. That pays for better healthcare and public services. They generally have a better standard of living too as transport, childcare costs etc are subsidised so even if youpay a higher proportion of tax, you will spend less of your income on other things because they are subsidised. This model has typically been hard to sell to the British public though where there is often a more Americanised view that wealthy people are subsidising the undeserving poor through their taxes.

@Zilla1

no, $300m x 70 million annually and the annual equivalent across long periods of time is just statistical noise and not significant. probably. Is anyone interested in my beautiful bridge. And NFT. And new crypto-asset?

These numbers are huge over time and its why are NHS is under staffed, & under equipped compared to many if not all EU healthcare systems.

I think charging for GP appointments for those earning above (e.g.) £50k might work, but for those on less, particularly those with children and therefore higher costs, they might put off making a GP appointment when they need one and end up extremely unwell, costing the NHS loads more than if they'd just got it sorted straight away. I'm sure there'd need to be studies showing the right point at which to charge.

Those with chronic conditions could choose to pay a monthly flat fee instead (similar to prescription pre-pay certificates) that covers any and all appointments.

The trouble with privatised healthcare is that in countries with a private or part-private system, the taxpayer usually ends up spending as much or even more than the UK taxpayer per capita - if the US had an NHS it would cost loads less than it currently spends on Medicaid etc.

What we ought to do in my opinion is spend more on the NHS. Where that comes from I have no idea - we'd need to spend less on other things and/or pay more tax.

@raspberryjamchicken Yes agree, we are quite a selfish population, we look after ourselves (or think we do) and don't consider society in our voting choices.
We seem to hate anything that has Europe in its title and having a hard right media doesn't help as they will do all they can to keep the Tories in power.