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Have the wheels come off St.jacinda of NZ

321 replies

Radyward · 14/02/2022 23:43

What!!! spraying protesters including women and childrem with water outside parliament Classing all protestors as loony anti vaxers.no sign of liftimg restrictions ' quite the opposite. Polls plummeting. She is completely nightmarish tho 53 deaths is amazing. Nz is now so woke no one with any brain or indepent thought will go there to holiday / work. She is on a power trip to end all. Poor kiwis

OP posts:
nojudgementhere · 15/02/2022 11:55

Yeah I agree with a lot of what you're saying @hamstersarse! Arden and Trudeau have introduced some highly questionable, divisive and cruel policies, yet do it all behind a facade of niceness and respectability which I find quite disturbing.

YeOldeTrout · 15/02/2022 12:25

NZ is culturally like the UK in many, many ways

yet it's not like Uk in many, many ways.

?

Does UK only have 5 main cities?
Does NZ have a land border with another country, with recent history of terrorism & smuggling ?
Is 17% of UK population indigenous ethnic minority?
Do UK sheep outnumber the people?
is NZ ~ 10th largest manufacturing economy in world?
Is NZ reliant on foreign-born labour, especially for health & social care?
Which airport in NZ is comparable to Heathrow, for total arrivals, departures, and international transfers?
Do services account for 80% of NZ GDP?

Ok, NZ does have a huge binge drinking culture. Maybe that's the only metric that matters.

BoredZelda · 15/02/2022 12:31

I would say though that using number of deaths as the end point is an extremely blunt instrument when it comes to assessing benefit to a society.

@Ginandplatonic I don't necessarily disagree but it is useful as a comparator for what has happened in other countries. When looking at the balance of harms NZ appears to have struck a better balance. UK borders remained open, but other restrictions were much harder and longer which took a greater daily emotional and economic toll on the country too. We also had many stories like yours where people were unable to give proper support to family from within our own borders for quite a prolonged period, and at the end of it all, far too many people ended up suffering the effects of covid be it death or illness.

I don't know if NZ did it absolutely right, but by most metrics the numbers are better there than most other places and certainly better than the UK.

Hoppinggreen · 15/02/2022 12:31

@hamstersarse

Woke’s a really useful term

I’ve never heard it used non-ironically by anyone who wasn’t a total arsehole. Exactly the types who were previously screeching about ‘political correctness gone mad’. Usually racist.

A handy red flag

I often wonder what people who hold this view think when they are forced to put their pronouns on their emails, called transphobic for misgendering someone or called a white supremicist for existing

What do you call this sort of behaviour that we now all have to agree with?

Fucking Ridiculous?
BoredZelda · 15/02/2022 12:32

I often wonder what people who hold this view think when they are forced to put their pronouns on their emails

I've yet to find anyone anywhere in real life who is forced to do this.

Bopping298 · 15/02/2022 12:35

"Baizuo" is a popular political epithet commonly used on the Chinese Internet. The literal translation is "white left" which refers to western white liberal leftists. According to Chinese political scientist Chenchen Zhang, the word "Baizuo" refers to those who "only care about topics such as immigration, minorities, LGBT rights and the environment", but lack a concept of "real problems in the real world". It is also used to describe those "hypocritical humanitarians who advocate political correctness just to satisfy their own sense of moral superiority". Some used this word to indicate those "ignorant and arrogant westerners" who "pity the rest of the world and think they are saviours".

This is interesting - never come across this term before.

hamstersarse · 15/02/2022 12:52

@Hoppinggreen

Lots of things are "fucking ridiculous". But 'woke' covers a specific subset of fucking ridiculous things - generally things that appear to be wonderful and full of empathy, but actually disguise a self-serving motive to look good

A bit like Jacinta Arden. All smiles yet literally creating an underclass, an 'other'. Because they don't agree with her.

I think I have also heard her say that the only media you should watch is government backed media. Another screeching alarm bell.

hamstersarse · 15/02/2022 12:54

@BoredZelda

I often wonder what people who hold this view think when they are forced to put their pronouns on their emails

I've yet to find anyone anywhere in real life who is forced to do this.

Do you live in real life? I work for a small business but with big corporates. Many of them are forced, sorry advised, to use pronouns in their emails

I realise 'force' doesn't exist as it used to. None of us were forced to have the vaccine, it was only advised (if we wanted to have an actual life)

CallItLoneliness · 15/02/2022 13:02

"Choosing to live outside New Zealand" isn't a crime punishable by having one's right to return suspended or revoked
Your right to return has never actually been suspended or revoked and nobody has accused you of a crime.

No, you just suggested that as I chose to live outside NZ, I got what I deserved. And according to international law, curtailments to a citizen's right of return to their own country have to be necessary and proportionate. I would argue that the MIQ system, if managed fairly (see below) and without charges for citizens returning home for family connection (rather than business), or with a single "free" visit per year is both. That isn't the system that has been implemented though, and that is why the system is under legal challenge from a number of directions.

the decision (yes, it was a decision) not to increase MIQ capacity, safety and efficiency has been the reason for many a situation that people would not have banked on.
Does the fact that the decision resulted in unexpected circumstance

Where did I say MIQ shouldn't exist? It shouldn't exist in hotels, which are ABSOLUTELY not designed for infection control, nor are the many hour trips all around the country on buses or planes to said hotels which have certainly increased the number of cases "caught at the border". Both capacity and efficiency could have been increased by purpose building an MIQ facility that could later have been used for emergency housing. Efficiency and transparency could have been improved by having a queue, rather than a lottery.

*I have paid tax in NZ since I left on the home I thought I might come back to.
So... you're a landlord and you have, in the time you've been away, rented out a capital asset and fulfilled the legal requirement to pay tax on the income you received (though not the likely large capital gain). *
I absolutely should be taxed on the capital gain, I completely agree with you, though you might be surprised how little I'd make, given the size and location of the house. Unfortunately if I tried to write the government a cheque, they would have no way of accepting it, because for political reasons, CGT on property is off the table. I didn't say I'd paid tax to woe is me, though--just to point out I had maintained ties with, and done the morally right thing by, NZ (unlike many who structure their finances to not contribute).

Unlike many who left, I paid off the student loan (that the government charged me 9% interest on while I was a student).
A good choice if you were visiting the country 2-3 times a year and didn't want to get arrested for non-payment.

Has this ever actually happened? I know loads of people who have been back and forth and never stopped. Again, not a woe is me, but a demonstration I've done the right thing by NZ because it is the right thing to do. Is this an alien concept to you?

My kids have been heartbroken at the disruption to their relationships with family, and we did as much as we could--my Mum doing MIQ once, and us visiting during the bubble.
So you have in fact been back to New Zealand during the pandemic and your mum has left and come back? So nobody's 'right' to return has actually been revoked, as above?

One visit in 3 years. Christmas, birthdays, easter over zoom. Crying in the bathroom every time the border reopening changed again, because home isolation meant I could hug my mum, but the MIQ lottery has made it out of the question, and we never tell the kids she's coming because we don't want them to be disapponted. And if I had wanted to come back in the past 10 months? People in Australia were not even eligible to apply for MIQ, except under emergency circumstances. That is neither reasonable nor proportionate, which as outlined above, probably makes it illegal.

Knowing we could get home if we desperately needed to for financial or family reasons, and being able to promise the kids a visit at some point would have been nice though. But hey, I chose to live outside NZ, so I can just fuck off, eh?
Financial reasons like having to go on the dole because the rest of the world ran out of the knowledge work you can't do in New Zealand?

Yes, precisely this actually, because other countries do not have a responsibility to house or feed me because I am not their citizen. New Zealand does. I work in the University sector, which in Australia has shed 60,000 jobs as a result of the pandemic (for those following along at home that's equivalent to every person who lives in New Plymouth--it's also twice as large as the WHOLE NZ University sector). As it stands, I have had the good fortune to maintain and improve my employment situation, but that hasn't been the same for all kiwis. While things were insecure, I applied for several University jobs in NZ (my sector having grown a bit), but was given the feedback that they were not even interviewing even citizens outside the country, because they needed some assurance that the people they employed would be able to begin work in a reasonable timeframe. For clarity, the typical notice period for academic staff in Universities is 3-6 MONTHS. They had genuine reason to believe that citizens overseas would not be able to return in this timeframe.

Or urgent family reasons for which you can apply for an emergency exemption?
Like my colleague who watched his Dad die on Zoom you mean? There are hundreds of stories like this. The emergency allocation system is not fair, not transparent, and not timely.

What can fuck off is your victim-stancing that you haven't been able to pop back and forth repeatedly for holidays during a global pandemic,
Er, I actually specifically said I did not expect to be able to "pop back and forth", but I guess you left that out because it doesn't fit your argument.

because the NZ government has been doing a world-leading job of protecting the health of the people who live here 365 days a year
Yeah, legally they also have a responsibility to me and my family, should we wish to enjoy those same protections, but again, I guess that's inconvenient. Also, for much of this time, I have posed no risk to NZ. My Mum did MIQ returning from Australia when the entire country had been community covid free for over two months. The NZ government put her at risk by putting her in a quarantine facility. How is that protecting her health (or, frankly, that of NZ?)

and pay $5K every month on their rent and mortgage and shopping, not just on prezzies and treat during visits at Christmas.
Sigh, actually protections shouldn't be dependent on money, though NZ's MIQ system with the all blacks and various other sportspeople pingponging back and forth like yoyos (which apparently is just fine by you, but people who want to see their family isn't) gives the lie to that. Or are you going to argue that they bring additional financial benefits, and people like me coming into the country and spending money don't?!

Like I said in my first post, there are many elements of the NZ response I support, and there are many ways in which it was world leading for the first two years, but to shrug off what the rest of the team of 6 million have had to deal with "because we chose to live outside New Zealand" is callous at best, and xenophobic, jealous and heartless at worst.

CorrBlimeyGG · 15/02/2022 13:06

Many of them are forced, sorry advised, to use pronouns in their emails

So not forced.

How embarrassing.

hamstersarse · 15/02/2022 13:09

@CorrBlimeyGG

Many of them are forced, sorry advised, to use pronouns in their emails

So not forced.

How embarrassing.

You missed out the new definition of 'forced' in your convenient cut and paste

How embarrassing

1Week · 15/02/2022 13:09

Come on CorrBlimey this is not your first day out talking about these issues! You know how these things work in the real world.

cecilthehungryspider · 15/02/2022 13:11

@CoalTit

...she was one of the World Economic Forum trained "Young Global Leaders" (or Young Leaders of Tomorrow as it was then called) like Trudeau and Macron. All use the same playbook. Vladimir Putin went through the program too, according to Klaus Schwab
Did that come from ConspiracyTheoriesRUs?

You can look up who was involved here: www.younggloballeaders.org/community?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=&status=alumni&class_year=&sector=&region=#results

TheHaka · 15/02/2022 13:12

You forgot to mention the Barry Manilow songs, so I'mtking it that you must be a fan? I fucking love Jacard!

TheHaka · 15/02/2022 13:13

No idea what happened there. I was thinking that you must be a BM fan?

hamstersarse · 15/02/2022 13:41

This is a great explanation of 'woke' by Andrew Doyle of infamous Titania McGrath twitter feed

twitter.com/addicted2newz/status/1493564363634008066?s=20&t=D-SCjJhkuxYN1RsuDyiF0w

balalake · 15/02/2022 13:49

Only 53 deaths. I'd swap Boris Johnson for Jacinda Ardern every time. I did disagree with using Barry Manilow's music as a weapon though. Would have understood if it had been Coldplay perhaps.

hamstersarse · 15/02/2022 14:01

Do you disagree with the right to protest? @balalake

I realise why people think Boris is worse than Jacinda, I used to respect her too....but dig below the surface and it's not pretty. I'd take Boris any day - at least he has true libertarian roots, he certainly doesn't think his opinion should be the only opinion and is 'right think' - she absolutely does, because she is 'so kind, so compassionate, just wants the best for everyone' her opinions are just right. No debate. That for me is an unbearable trait when you have some power. She is not going to give up these powers to control people without being forced to. Also see Trudeau for this way of leading.

MarchCrocus · 15/02/2022 14:57

Yeah, legally they also have a responsibility to me and my family, should we wish to enjoy those same protections, but again, I guess that's inconvenient

Absolutely.

Tealightsandd · 15/02/2022 15:13

Freedom. Prized above life and health (and long term economy) in some countries these dystopian times.

Why?

Why is the freedom to die - and potentially to kill - so much more important than anything else?

It reminds me of when extreme animal rights activists set 'free' animals from farms or other places of captivity. The poor animals don't know how to survive, and so they die (often in pain and fear).

Meanwhile back in the human world, where's the freedom? Seems to be very selective. Single issue, in fact. The freedom to be killed or disabled by a novel disease still not yet fully understood (particularly the long term damage).

But no freedom for smokers or people whose drug of choice is opium rather than alcohol.

Oh so free are we... Not.

StormTreader · 15/02/2022 15:14

I often wonder what people who hold this view think when they are forced to put their pronouns on their emails, called transphobic for misgendering someone or called a white supremicist for existing

Respectively: Drama queen, someone who will hopefully try a little harder to get it right in future, and drama queen again.

Yeahthat · 15/02/2022 15:58

@Tealightsandd

Freedom. Prized above life and health (and long term economy) in some countries these dystopian times.

Why?

Why is the freedom to die - and potentially to kill - so much more important than anything else?

It reminds me of when extreme animal rights activists set 'free' animals from farms or other places of captivity. The poor animals don't know how to survive, and so they die (often in pain and fear).

Meanwhile back in the human world, where's the freedom? Seems to be very selective. Single issue, in fact. The freedom to be killed or disabled by a novel disease still not yet fully understood (particularly the long term damage).

But no freedom for smokers or people whose drug of choice is opium rather than alcohol.

Oh so free are we... Not.

So in your metaphor, you're a farm animal and the politicians your benevolent and omniscient masters?

I think you'd be more at home in China.

If you're so afraid of dying, stay home permanently. I'm happy to live in a free society and to accept the inherent risks that that entails.

MarchCrocus · 15/02/2022 16:22

@Tealightsandd

Freedom. Prized above life and health (and long term economy) in some countries these dystopian times.

Why?

Why is the freedom to die - and potentially to kill - so much more important than anything else?

It reminds me of when extreme animal rights activists set 'free' animals from farms or other places of captivity. The poor animals don't know how to survive, and so they die (often in pain and fear).

Meanwhile back in the human world, where's the freedom? Seems to be very selective. Single issue, in fact. The freedom to be killed or disabled by a novel disease still not yet fully understood (particularly the long term damage).

But no freedom for smokers or people whose drug of choice is opium rather than alcohol.

Oh so free are we... Not.

The New Zealand government have been phenomenally selective and single issue...
CheekyHobson · 15/02/2022 16:39

@Ginandplatonic

well if you genuinely have “dozens” of friends who’ve negotiated the arbitrary and Dickensian immigration bureaucracy to pop over for a quick holiday they’re stronger people than we are. We have lost over a thousand dollars and countless hours of our time, not to mention weeks of precious annual leave (impossible to reschedule at short notice for an ICU specialist in the middle of a pandemic) to the sudden cancelling of the “travel bubble”, and attempting to navigate the system. With the response on multiple occasions being “computer says no”.

Look, I'm sorry, but I do honestly know that many people. I can't speak to why your particular experience has been so difficult but from where I'm sitting, what I have repeatedly seen is that although yes, a bit of patience and flexibility is required, it's been perfectly possible to come back if people want to. In a pandemic, of course there are going to be sudden changes and frustrations but these are not the fault of the government whose top priority – sorry to say it, but there is an order of priorities and 'completely free access to return to NZ' isn't at the top of it –is to protect the citizens who live in their country.

But it’s not about our family’s heartache. It is, as you say, about balance - but there’s no easy answer as to where the correct balance lies. It seems NZ-ers are happier than I would be with a curtailment of broader rights and freedoms in exchange for the ability to live ostensibly freely in their small bubble. But there must be a cost to that - economic, emotional, whatever. And at some point the borders will surely have to open and COVID will come, and then what was the point of it all?

The freedom wasn't ostensible, it was actual. Every country in the world has had periods of lockdown in the last 2 years; NZ has actually had less than almost all of them. And of course there's a cost! It's a pandemic! Covid is already here now because of course it was never going to be able to be kept out forever (which despite what many claim, was never the point) and the borders will basically be fully open within a month.

The point – I can't believe this needs to be said – was to save thousands of lives and minimise economic losses, and in those regards, the government's strategy has been highly successful. Covid is entering the country at a time of extremely high vaccination, much better understanding and availability of treatments, and at a time where a less lethal variant has evolved. Not every life can be saved but the point has ALWAYS been minimising impact.

Tealightsandd · 15/02/2022 16:53

you're so afraid of dying, stay home permanently. I'm happy to live in a free society and to accept the inherent risks that that entails.

I look forward to you joining me in my freedom for smokers and opium eaters campaign group. If somebody is so afraid of dying of second hand smoke, they should stay home permanently. I'm happy to live in a free society and accept the inherent risks that entails. 🚬

Now, onto the freedom to drive without those mitigations that are seat belts and speeding limits....