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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Have the wheels come off St.jacinda of NZ

321 replies

Radyward · 14/02/2022 23:43

What!!! spraying protesters including women and childrem with water outside parliament Classing all protestors as loony anti vaxers.no sign of liftimg restrictions ' quite the opposite. Polls plummeting. She is completely nightmarish tho 53 deaths is amazing. Nz is now so woke no one with any brain or indepent thought will go there to holiday / work. She is on a power trip to end all. Poor kiwis

OP posts:
MarchCrocus · 18/02/2022 08:31

[quote SquirrelG]@mbosnz - loving your measured, thoughtful posts. Good to see some common sense amongst the ranting on this thread. I can't quite grasp why people on the other side of the world feel the need to get so worked about other countries (not just NZ) on numerous threads when they are not actually affected. Could it be a touch of envy?

I have my views on the way many things are done in the UK, but as I don't live there, and it doesn't affect me, I don't feel the need to comment.[/quote]
The argument about NZ not being the business of people elsewhere doesn't work, not when part of NZ's pandemic response has involved expecting the rest of the world to accommodate a chunk of their citizens until such a time as they felt like taking responsibility again.

CallItLoneliness · 18/02/2022 09:57

@CheekyHobson more fake news. 9000 rooms per 28 days www.mbie.govt.nz/business-and-employment/economic-development/covid-19-data-resources/managed-isolation-and-quarantine-data/miq-capacity-and-allocations/ at current capacity is something less than 2250 allowing for cleaning in between. Many of these rooms are NOT fit for purpose, and there have been outbreaks as a result of them. Victoria in Australia, which has identical winter average temperatures to Auckland (and less hospitable temperatures in the summer) has built a quarantine facility that could surge to those numbers within 1 month from now, and they started work in September. The project only got the green light in July www.vic.gov.au/victorian-quarantine-hub.

I'm sure most Aucklanders, who enjoyed months worth of lockdown as a result of viral escape, would much have preferred a purpose built facility where food could be delivered as ingredients a couple of times a week and testing could have been done outdoors, minimising the risk to everyone.

Also, while we're discussing ways in which you are wrong--in the three years prior to leaving NZ, I went exactly nowhere due to my financial situation. Not that it should matter, because if I had I would still have been a New Zealander, just as you are.

Your parochialism and lack of imagination about lives other than your own and solutions other than exactly what NZ has achieved only serve to exacerbate the fiction that New Zealand is a brainwashed, totalitarian state. I'll not engage with you further, because you clearly have a fixed mindset and there is no point.

DryOldCaper · 18/02/2022 10:13

I'll not engage with you further

Oh wow, there’s a threat.

mbosnz · 18/02/2022 14:41

Nations help other nations out. NZ has certainly helped Britain out a time or two. What goes around, comes around. It's a two way street. Which is not to say that when one nation helps another out, it shouldn't be acknowledged and appreciated. I'm very sure that if Britain had been in a position to do the same as NZ, Britons in NZ would have been helped in the same manner. As Britons who were stranded in NZ were helped by New Zealanders, as I understand it.

I think perhaps one of the reasons why more NZers are prepared to go along with restrictions and mitigating factors, is because they perceive less reason to mistrust the reasoning and motivations behind the Government's rules and guidelines. Perhaps because there is less reson to mistrust. NZ has not seen the same issues of cronyisom, attempts to profit, populist flip flopping, undermining of the scientists and the medical professionals. Nor the same flagrant disregard by the powers that be of the rules that they themselves imposed upon us. They haven't been treated like fools, being told that a jolly to Barnard Castle constituted a perfectly legitimate eye test. They haven't been told that the PM actually stated that he was prepared to 'let the bodies pile high'.

There is still a sizable and possibly growing minority that is increasingly questioning the rules and guidelines, the pressure to vaccinate. They are widely and vociferously demonstrating, with very little hindrance, albeit with the exception of a couple of Trevor Mallard's dimmer ideas - deploying the grass sprinklers and Barry Manilow.

Perhaps a reason why there is quite a holler of anti-vaccination, is because due to the measures NZ has put in place, they have largely been spared the trauma and damage Covid has visited upon other nations.

To call NZ a totalitarian state is nonsense. It has one of the lesser terms of Government in the world, being three years. It was rated last year as the least corrupt country in the world, unchanged from 2019. Ardern has won two terms fair and square. I think it's unlikely she will win a third, not because she has performed poorly, but because people have had a gutsful of Covid, and being used to quick fixes, are likely to vote for a change. I hope I'm wrong, because National and Chris Luxon are a whole other ball game.

Ardern is no saint. She is an extremely savvy politician. I do believe, however, that her motivations have been the correct ones, to limit loss of life and damage to the economy to what is her paramount concern - the population within NZ.

NZ has moved on from zero covid. They know covid is coming, that covid is there, that there will be deaths. NZ has a very limited ICU capacity, which it needs to try and manage the disease within the capacity. So it makes sense to continue to try and limit transmission by vaccination, and by other measures, such as mask wearing and social distancing.

mbosnz · 18/02/2022 15:38

Incidentally, Spanish Flu in 1918 was brought to NZ by soldiers returning from fighting in the Great War.

mbosnz · 18/02/2022 15:40

The second wave, that is. I'll shut up now.

Hope everyone, wherever they may be, are staying safe, warm and dry!

mbosnz · 18/02/2022 15:58

Oh, also ranked second most democratic nation in the world, 2022. UK 18th.

MarchCrocus · 18/02/2022 17:29

As Britons who were stranded in NZ were helped by New Zealanders, as I understand it.

It isn't about the actions of ordinary people, it's about one state that has chosen to deny one of the basic rights of citizenship to some people for a sustained period. In this respect there is an absolutely colossal distinction between the actions of the New Zealand government and the UK government during the pandemic, most governments actually. States denying access to and refusing to take responsibility for part of their citizenry is generally considered to be pretty bad behaviour.

mbosnz · 18/02/2022 17:36

There was provision, albeit seriously flawed provision for citizens to return. So that basic right of citizenship was arguably not breached in totality.

Another country that has chosen to deny basic rights of citizenship is the UK - stripping citizens of their citizenship - Shamima Begum.

Then there is the Australian tendency to deport people who haven't been in the NZ since being children or babies, back to NZ due to anti-social or criminal behaviour.

This can be seen as whataboutery. It's not. What I am saying is it is not the sole province of NZ to be pretty extreme in its treatment of citizenship and overseas citizens, in dire circumstances. I would argue that a global pandemic is a pretty dire circumstance.

MarchCrocus · 18/02/2022 17:46

@mbosnz

There was provision, albeit seriously flawed provision for citizens to return. So that basic right of citizenship was arguably not breached in totality.

Another country that has chosen to deny basic rights of citizenship is the UK - stripping citizens of their citizenship - Shamima Begum.

Then there is the Australian tendency to deport people who haven't been in the NZ since being children or babies, back to NZ due to anti-social or criminal behaviour.

This can be seen as whataboutery. It's not. What I am saying is it is not the sole province of NZ to be pretty extreme in its treatment of citizenship and overseas citizens, in dire circumstances. I would argue that a global pandemic is a pretty dire circumstance.

Having to say it wasn't breached in totality is making my point for me. Saying actually the NZ government has only denied basic rights of citizenship to some of the population isn't making them sound impressive. JA doesn't deserve a cookie because she didn't offload all the NZ citizens abroad.

Also, it's absolutely whataboutery. And strawmanning, because literally nobody is saying NZ is the only country to have ever treated citizens badly. Actually, the fact that the UK Home Office is usually such a massive toilet and yet emerges from this as the body that behaved better and took greater responsibility is extremely telling in itself.

mbosnz · 18/02/2022 17:50

I accept that is your position.

From my point of view, the NZ Government's paramount concern and responsibility was first and foremost to those within her borders.

When we came overseas, none of us foresaw a pandemic, and the potential consequences. We remain New Zealanders. But for me, I didn't expect my concerns as an overseas New Zealander to be put before such concerns at home as not overrunning our inadequate healthcare, and using every weapon in our arsenal to keep fatalities to a minimum.

KeepingAnOpenMind · 18/02/2022 17:53

Jacinda needs to go before more people and businesses die due to her lunatic measures.

mbosnz · 18/02/2022 17:55

Um less people have died, and businesses are in a better state in NZ than over here, due to her measures.

MarchCrocus · 18/02/2022 17:57

@mbosnz

I accept that is your position.

From my point of view, the NZ Government's paramount concern and responsibility was first and foremost to those within her borders.

When we came overseas, none of us foresaw a pandemic, and the potential consequences. We remain New Zealanders. But for me, I didn't expect my concerns as an overseas New Zealander to be put before such concerns at home as not overrunning our inadequate healthcare, and using every weapon in our arsenal to keep fatalities to a minimum.

As well as the minimisation of the NZ government having denied a basic right of citizenship to so many people, the sense of entitlement here is quite something. There's an underlying belief with a lot of supporters of this policy that it was fine to simply expect the rest of the world to pick up the pieces of NZ government policy choices over a sustained period, and it's clearly on display here.
mbosnz · 18/02/2022 18:01

I believe that NZ'ers have sometimes given, sometimes taken. Same as pretty much every country in the world. If you want to talk about entitlement, do you want to talk about how many NZ'ers died under the British Flag in how many wars? How NZ was under rations until the 1950's so they could send food to the UK? Compared to that, this is a drop in the bucket. Which is not to say that it is not appreciated, and should not be acknowledged and appreciated.

I note you haven't addressed how the Spanish flu came to NZ. . .

Which possibly might have informed the pandemic response of NZ this time around.

Yeahthat · 18/02/2022 18:02

@mbosnz

There was provision, albeit seriously flawed provision for citizens to return. So that basic right of citizenship was arguably not breached in totality.

Another country that has chosen to deny basic rights of citizenship is the UK - stripping citizens of their citizenship - Shamima Begum.

Then there is the Australian tendency to deport people who haven't been in the NZ since being children or babies, back to NZ due to anti-social or criminal behaviour.

This can be seen as whataboutery. It's not. What I am saying is it is not the sole province of NZ to be pretty extreme in its treatment of citizenship and overseas citizens, in dire circumstances. I would argue that a global pandemic is a pretty dire circumstance.

What an insult to your fellow citizens stuck abroad through no fault of their own to compare them to Shamima Begum! You do realise that she was provided with legal aid to contest the case, which is currently at the Supreme Court?

Therefore, in what way has she been denied her rights? The British government made a decision - that's kind of their job - and since this is a democratic country which believes in the rule of law, she has legal means to challenge it. She has been provided with legal aid.

It's interesting that her own father isn't particularly sympathetic, stating: "If she at least admitted she made a mistake then I would feel sorry for her and other people would feel sorry for her, but she does not accept her wrong."
He's probably referring to the fact that she continues to espouse ISIS ideology, would only qualify that she supports "some" British values, said that she was in part inspired to join due to videos of them executing hostages, and also continues to attempt to justify the groups mass rape and enslavement of Yazidi women.

Bangladesh has stated that if she attempted to enter their country, she'd face the death penalty.

You think she is an apt comparison for your fellow citizens who were stranded abroad due to covid?

mbosnz · 18/02/2022 18:04

Wasn't comparing us to Begum, was pointing out that countries other than NZ have played fast and loose with issues of citizenship. . .

SQLserved · 18/02/2022 18:05

@JackieWeaverHandforthCouncil

Is there nothing you lot won’t squeeze the word ‘woke’ into? I’m sick to fuck if hearing this word. It’s completely meaningless.
This! It means “I am old and out of touch with reality. I have no evidence to support my viewpoints so I pepper my sentences with insults”
mbosnz · 18/02/2022 18:07

I'm impressed some have managed to make the transition from 'pc' and 'snowflake', to 'wokery'.

MarchCrocus · 18/02/2022 18:09

@mbosnz

I believe that NZ'ers have sometimes given, sometimes taken. Same as pretty much every country in the world. If you want to talk about entitlement, do you want to talk about how many NZ'ers died under the British Flag in how many wars? How NZ was under rations until the 1950's so they could send food to the UK? Compared to that, this is a drop in the bucket. Which is not to say that it is not appreciated, and should not be acknowledged and appreciated.

I note you haven't addressed how the Spanish flu came to NZ. . .

Which possibly might have informed the pandemic response of NZ this time around.

No, because that would be whataboutery. We're talking about the NZ covid response. I didn't address Spanish flu because I didn't see you mention it, but had I done so it would've been to point out that this is also whataboutery.

You're right though, the actions of lots of states around the world (the UK isn't actually special here, we had company) stepping in because NZ unilaterally decided that meeting obligations to their citizens was optional, rather than challenging NZ, should indeed be acknowledged and appreciated by people who think those actions were justified.

Watapalava · 18/02/2022 18:09

Shamima was hardly playing fast and loose

What a ridiculous comment which honestly makes you sound completely thick

She’s a fucking terrorist!

Watapalava · 18/02/2022 18:10

The fact is NZ had capacity to take its citizens back

It just prioritised money

mbosnz · 18/02/2022 18:14

No, the Spanish flu is not whataboutery, it's a direct corollary with a relevant comparative historic example.

Watapalava, if you want to talk about statements that make a poster sound a bit thick, then 'NZ had capacity to take its citizens back, it just prioritised money', has to be up there.

NZ prioritised minimising loss of life due to a global pandemic.

MarshaBradyo · 18/02/2022 18:17

When posters focus on behaviour of people in U.K. v NZ they underestimate the biggest variables - geography and timing plus border control

I also know another state that had zero Covid for longer than NZ but the narrative isn’t the same as NZ - we tried harder etc - because it’s so obvious border control is the main difference

mbosnz · 18/02/2022 18:21

I absolutely agree MarshaBradyo. I also wonder how many others would have done what NZ did if they had the geographic advantages we did!

I remember at the time, a hell of a lot of people clamouring in the UK for borders to be shut to all, and really being quite reluctant to acknowledge that it would be a hell of a lot harder for the UK to successfully implement this.

I think an awful lot if the coulda, woulda.

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