To think MN has it all wrong re proposals?

[alfayruz]

Inspired by a thread the other day, but also a general observation on here, I was thinking ... whenever anyone posts on MN about waiting for a proposal from their DP, you can guarantee hundreds of posts along the lines of ‘just propose to him....’ AIBU to think this is ridiculous because -

1. Nobody in actual real life does this

2. Having to propose to a man would be a massive turn off anyway so what is the point?

3. Even if you could still muster some kind of sexual attraction towards him, the bar is set at rock bottom before you even start - so why would you expect any initiative or effort from him on any other occasions or general life going forward?

AIBU?

@Campfirewood

95% of marriages have started with the man proposing. All graduates, all professionals, all fairly assertive capable woman.

Sorry what? Are you saying that All graduates, all professionals, all fairly assertive capable woman have been proposed to, and not done the proposing or just simply agreeing to get married, or not

@alfayruz

It’s not about ‘calling the shots.’ Men (generally) don’t just propose out if the blue. Nor do they tend to put themselves out there if they think there’s a good chance she might actually say no!

They just do it because it’s a meaningful way of marking the start of your lives together. It’s respectful and makes you feel special.

But I think it is about men calling the shots, personally.

If it doesn't come out of the blue and he's already pretty sure that she is going to say yes, then what's the point of the proposal anyway? Surely it's about the symbolic aspect of the proposal in that case? And if the man has to lead and the woman has to wait for the man to take that lead, what does that symbolise exactly?

Why is it only meaningful and special if the man proposes to the woman? Why wouldn't it be equally meaningful and special the other way round? Why does a woman have to wait around doing a weird "pick me" dance until the man is ready to speak?

That might seem like a special way for you to start your lives together, but for me, it's just more patriarchal shit that I could frankly do without.

I really don’t think you need to take everything so literally as ‘patriarchal shot’ though, Alexa. Some traditions persist because women like things like that. They expect a certain level of behaviour in a man. Otherwise, it’s like sucking all the joy and romance out of life? I’m not saying a proposal has to be a big social media - orientated affair. Not at all. That kind of thing didn’t even exist in the same way when my husband proposed. It’s nothing to do with anyone else.

Why does a woman have to wait around doing a weird "pick me" dance until the man is ready to speak?

She doesn't have to wait around at all. If he's not showing signs of wanting to commit...

Op maybe I missed it but you haven't explained why women have to be vague and indirect about saying they would like to get married. Do you not know the answer?

I really am interested as to your train of thought behind this, as it seems bizarre to me.

I get that some women want the proposal moment in their lives but do they want it that much that they wait for it for years and years? Years of wondering if they’ll get married all for a few moments. I don’t get it.

Having to hint about what I want for my life in the hope my partner will pick up on it (and he would also have to "realise" that women can't just bring up this stuff directly) would suck the joy and romance out of my life, for sure.

The thing I love about my dh is that we talk about everything honestly. If he found out that I really wanted to do something major in life but hadn't ever mentioned it directly, just dropping weird hints, he would think I'd lost the plot!

Some traditions persist because some women like things like that.

Corrected that for you. There are many women who don't like the traditions which dictate rigid gender roles. I accept that some do.

Personally, I do not really understand why women sometimes taking the lead in a relationship would suck the joy and romance out of anything.

@DrSbaitso

Why does a woman have to wait around doing a weird "pick me" dance until the man is ready to speak?

She doesn't have to wait around at all. If he's not showing signs of wanting to commit...

No of course she doesn't. She could just walk away. Or she could initiate a grown up conversation about what she wants and see if he is on the same page.

It’s not about being vague and indirect for years on end. When you meet a man, you know if he’s the type who behaves in the way you would expect - (or not)! You know if a man makes an effort in the dating phase, or if he’s the minimal effort, drift through life and come what may type. You know what his principles are, the way he approaches life in all kinds of aspects. That’s the attraction between people. You don’t have to be vague and indirect about anything. The vast majority of men will just know when the woman is in the same page and the time is right because it’s obvious.

@alfayruz

I really don’t think you need to take everything so literally as ‘patriarchal shot’ though, Alexa. Some traditions persist because women like things like that. They expect a certain level of behaviour in a man. Otherwise, it’s like sucking all the joy and romance out of life? I’m not saying a proposal has to be a big social media - orientated affair. Not at all. That kind of thing didn’t even exist in the same way when my husband proposed. It’s nothing to do with anyone else.

But this thread is full of women saying they don’t like it!

@alfayruz

is this the 1950s?

Every thread. Every time.

It's a pointless comment, I agree. My mum & dad met in the 50s, married in the 60s. They had a wonderful 59 years together. Mum tells me they just chatted about getting engaged and married and agreed it together so era has nothing to do with it.

I proposed to DH! It was a leap year proposal.

No one does this in real life? Well I did! We had been together a few years, had talked lots over that time about expectations for the future. I'd got up early one Sunday because we were heading to a car show, made him a cup of tea and as I handed it over just said "I think we should get married". He replied that he thought that was a great idea, we had a kiss and that was that! Went out and chose a ring from a little antique place later in the week and then booked the venue for later that year.

I cannot stand grand gestures and DH knows that if he had ever done the down on one knee thing that we would have split up, because it would have indicated that he didn't know me at all. For me the discussion and agreeing together were much more important and DH knew that.
The difference in our case is that I had DC from a previous relationship and we had many discussions about things like protecting me and them financially, wills etc when initially discussing marriage. So there had always been an acknowledgment of the serious and solid reasons for marriage above and beyond any notion of "romance". I don't really do romance either, after an abusive relationship of harm and then grand gestures to try and make up for it I much prefer the solid every day small gestures of love that our relationship is built on.

Everyone is different and all relationships are different.

@alfayruz

It’s not about being vague and indirect for years on end. When you meet a man, you know if he’s the type who behaves in the way you would expect - (or not)! You know if a man makes an effort in the dating phase, or if he’s the minimal effort, drift through life and come what may type. You know what his principles are, the way he approaches life in all kinds of aspects. That’s the attraction between people. You don’t have to be vague and indirect about anything. The vast majority of men will just know when the woman is in the same page and the time is right because it’s obvious.

OK, I agree that it's often obvious when a couple are both on the same page. I just don't understand why it has to be the man who takes the initiative to propose in that situation?

You clearly disapprove of men who make minimal effort and drift through life, and that's fair enough, but what's your view on women who do this? Is it not an equally positive trait in a woman to be proactive about creating the life that she wants? Would it be reasonable for a man to decide that a woman was unattractive because she failed to take the lead in the relationship, or is it only OK for women to feel this because men are somehow supposed to be the natural leaders?

Yes but my point is, MN is different to what I observe in real life.

I am mid 40s. I don’t know anyone who hasn’t had a marriage proposal of some sort. I don’t know anyone who has been offended about being given an engagement ring.

I do wonder if MN threads are ‘confirmation bias’ in a way because it’s only people that are ‘against’ something (in this case proposals) or have objections that bother to post?

@alfayruz

I really don’t think you need to take everything so literally as ‘patriarchal shot’ though, Alexa. Some traditions persist because women like things like that. They expect a certain level of behaviour in a man. Otherwise, it’s like sucking all the joy and romance out of life? I’m not saying a proposal has to be a big social media - orientated affair. Not at all. That kind of thing didn’t even exist in the same way when my husband proposed. It’s nothing to do with anyone else.

Some traditions persist because SOME women like things like that.

and men like to tell us we should like it, and then we should keep it

Do you like the tradition of the wife stopping work when she gets married? or has a baby, afterall thats tradition

@alfayruz

Yes but my point is, MN is different to what I observe in real life.

I am mid 40s. I don’t know anyone who hasn’t had a marriage proposal of some sort. I don’t know anyone who has been offended about being given an engagement ring.

I do wonder if MN threads are ‘confirmation bias’ in a way because it’s only people that are ‘against’ something (in this case proposals) or have objections that bother to post?

But that says more about the social circles that you move in than society as a whole. There are lots of real women here telling you that their experience is different. Why do you doubt them?

The fanfare around being proposed to is actually quite pathetic. 90% of people know its going to happen and even choose their own ring. So what's the point? Attention clearly.

I do think all the suspense about will he/won't he propse is ridiculous.

If you don't know that you want to spend the rest of your lives together, you shouldn't discover that atthe moment he (or she) asks you to marry them.

dh and I knew we were at that point, and at the same time, having reached that point, he then chose a nice moment to propose, knowing full well that I would say yes.

@ForTheLoveOfSleep

The fanfare around being proposed to is actually quite pathetic. 90% of people know its going to happen and even choose their own ring. So what's the point? Attention clearly.

What’s wrong with some attention from your partner?

The reverse snobbery on MN around proposals is tiring. You’re not better people with stronger relationships for deciding to get married and then no proposal.

My sister proposed to her now husband. So it definitely happens in the real world op.

Alexa, I think, in relationships, people ‘take the lead’ in different ways. Your husband proposing to you is hardly a reason to feel diminished as a woman. My husband gave me a diamond ring when he proposed - well, I could hardly give him a diamond ring could I? He’s just given me flowers this morning. Is the fact men tend to give women flowers or gifts today and not the other way round patriarchal as well? It’s ok to have differences and celebrate that and not worry about such things.

@alfayruz

I really don’t think you need to take everything so literally as ‘patriarchal shot’ though, Alexa. Some traditions persist because women like things like that. They expect a certain level of behaviour in a man. Otherwise, it’s like sucking all the joy and romance out of life? I’m not saying a proposal has to be a big social media - orientated affair. Not at all. That kind of thing didn’t even exist in the same way when my husband proposed. It’s nothing to do with anyone else.

Women are not an homogeneous mass. What 'women' like depends on the individual woman. Clearly you're quite fixed on rigid gender stereotypes. Others aren't.