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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think MN has it all wrong re proposals?

691 replies

alfayruz · 13/02/2022 20:12

Inspired by a thread the other day, but also a general observation on here, I was thinking ... whenever anyone posts on MN about waiting for a proposal from their DP, you can guarantee hundreds of posts along the lines of ‘just propose to him....’ AIBU to think this is ridiculous because -

  1. Nobody in actual real life does this

  2. Having to propose to a man would be a massive turn off anyway so what is the point?

  3. Even if you could still muster some kind of sexual attraction towards him, the bar is set at rock bottom before you even start - so why would you expect any initiative or effort from him on any other occasions or general life going forward?

AIBU?

OP posts:
cuno · 17/02/2022 11:14

I mean there is so much more to it than that but I was sticking to toys as it was your example.

cuno · 17/02/2022 11:16

Also babies surely can't be fascinated by fairies and princesses as they have no comprehension of those things.

tigger1001 · 17/02/2022 11:19

@cuno

Gender neutral doesn't mean fairies and princesses aren't allowed... it means you don't "gender" the toys. So fairies and princesses are for both girls and boys, just as much as trucks and dinosaurs. Although a princess in and of itself is already gendered but you get my point?
Exactly this!

Gender neutral doesn't mean no dolls or pink or sparkly stuff. It just means that either boys or girls can play with them. You don't say "oh that's for girls" if a boy wants to play with a specific toy and same if a girl wants to play with a toy.

That allows them to be exactly who they want to be

alfayruz · 17/02/2022 11:21

Anyway, I’m Covid free now and on a train up to Manchester. Entertaining though the thread was yesterday, I can’t just go on and on about this anymore once I arrive as I’m going to be with people today.

OP posts:
SpinsForGin · 17/02/2022 11:26

I think a lot of the confusion has been down to a fundamental misunderstanding about when gender neutral means.....
It means a lots of the earlier comments make sense ( kind of)

SnakeLinguine · 17/02/2022 11:26

@alfayruz

SnakeLinguine - yes all that is perfectly possible.

The only issue I have here, is that socialisation works many ways. I could have been on a mission to socialise my daughter in the perceived ‘gender neutral’ way (whether she liked it or not). On MN, that type of socialisation is generally applauded and gender-neutral preferences are talked about as default and what people ‘should’ strive for.. How often do we hear, “Don’t be so bloody stupid, your daughter can’t have been fascinated by fairies and princesses as a baby, You have socialised her to be like that. Just don’t buy the stuff!’

Well, I only have a son, but he was intensely attracted to sparkly things when he was a baby and toddler -- he insisted on silver and pink glittery wellies for preschool. It took his peers' (and of course, the adults from which they learned gender roles) disapproval to 'teach' him that pink, glittery things are gendered feminine, and hence only 'for girls'. It may be innate for young humans to be attracted to bright, sparkly things, but they have to be socialised into their gender associations being with fairies/princesses.

Having said that, he is now nine, still wears a lot of pink to school on a regular basis his current favourite garment is a pink hoodie with bright cartoon flowers on the front, courtesy of some Youtuber and there's a crazy hair day at his school next week, for which he's planning to use pink hair chalk/spray. Fortunately, it seems his peers aren't so hung up on pink only being for girls.

Brefugee · 17/02/2022 13:15

I think deep down every woman wants a romantic proposal from a man who chose to do it off his own back and not because he’s somehow cornered into doing it.

this came on page 17 of a thread where so many different women are saying: fine if you like that kind of thing I don't. And yet still posters are spouting this piffle.

I would have hated that. I Actually don't get the "getting engaged" thing. If you decide to marry, you are "engaged to be married" that's what engaged means. You don't have to have a ring (I've been engaged twice, one i chose a lovely little ring, he put it on in the jeweller's shop because he was going back to NI in a few hours, and the jeweller thought that was hugely romantic. We never married. I suggested to my present spouse that we marry, and we did a few months later. No ring. Except that much later i saw a ring - i do love sparkly things - that i liked and said "i'm wearing this as an engagement ring" and i do)

If my DH had asked my father for his permission or even blessing my dad would have told him to seriously rethink what he was doing since he clearly didn't know me at all if he thought i would put up with patriarchal bullshit like that. Thankfully he didn't and here we are nearly 40 years later.

JassyRadlett · 17/02/2022 14:29

It’s interesting, @Brefugee, we did the engaged thing, engagement ring, etc. I find it quite hard to explain it to my sons when they ask about the ring. I kind of have to go down the road of ‘well, it’s an old-fashioned tradition that only women get an engagement ring, and actually it’s a bit silly I guess.’

Because the reality is that engagement rings were a way to signify that a women was spoken for/off the market before marriage. And men didn’t need them because they were the ones doing the speaking/buying. So it’s another signal of the lack of female agency over a long period.

And yet I wear mine happily. Totally down to how I’ve been socialised, but the fact that my boys fundamentally don’t understand why men don’t also get a bit of pretty bling means that hopefully they’re socialised a bit differently.

Brefugee · 17/02/2022 14:40

It is very odd. My DD wears my first engagement ring - it is very pretty - but only discovered last year that it is from a previous relationship. She was shocked! i laughed my socks off. The traditional reason for a ring has been overtaken anyway: unless the price is in the mid-6 figures, selling it won't give financial stability if things go tits up with the relationship before the marriage happens.

What we see here on MN time and again, and often in the "still waiting for a proposal" threads is that marriage, the actual marriage with the licence, is still a form of financial security for the more vulnerable/financially weaker partner. And i have no issue with that. I am all for it, in fact.
I probably wouldn't have married when i did if i could have had an easy way of cohabiting, but that's how the dice roll sometimes. And now, decades later, i realise that the stability we have in our relationship partly comes from that piece of paper (easier to work through the kinks than divorce, I'm all for the path of least resistance)

The über-feminist in me tells me that marriage really only need be an issue at times like having children, purchasing a property, or the liklihood that one will fall ill or die before the other. I also realise that not everyone sees it like that.

And knowing that's what i think it surprises people to know that we always have a drink on the anniversary of our first date, and do things that we don't particularly love, to make the other happy (going to tedious hair-band gigs, the opera, the ballet) as well as doing the things we both love. That is quite romantic, IMO, and again, not everyone agrees.

Bling and proposals and a merangue-dress? not so much. (unless you want it)

Brefugee · 17/02/2022 14:41

i have long, slim fingers with good nails. My hands really suit rings and i like diamonds. I was BORN to be engaged Grin

JassyRadlett · 17/02/2022 15:00

And knowing that's what i think it surprises people to know that we always have a drink on the anniversary of our first date, and do things that we don't particularly love, to make the other happy (going to tedious hair-band gigs, the opera, the ballet) as well as doing the things we both love. That is quite romantic, IMO, and again, not everyone agrees.

Ha! We are very similar. In a way the first date anniversary is more significant than the wedding one for us.

Rings aren’t great on me but I look(ed) AMAZING in strapless dresses with a train. So I went big, never going to win an Oscar so that was my chance 😂

Brefugee · 17/02/2022 15:07

part of me wishes I'd gone for the big party, but in the end it was a marquee in my parents' garden. And no photographer because i hate having my photo taken.

Seeing all the stories in this thread - which has been one of the better ones I've seen on MN, shows just how different we can all be and how we adapt ourselves - how we take the bits of tradition we want and ditch the rest. It's quite uplifting, actually.

SpinsForGin · 17/02/2022 15:17

I completely agree that romance means different things to different people. Not everyone considers the big surprise proposal romantic.

We are one of those couples who just agreed to get married. In fact we decided we wanted to and booked the registry office for the next available slot. We got married at 10am on a Monday morning then flew out to somewhere hot without telling anyone but our parents that we were married. We go back to where we had our one and only wedding picture every year on our anniversary and have a picture taken at the same spot with our DS. It wonderful and we have a lovely collection of picture which we treasure.

JassyRadlett · 17/02/2022 18:16

@Brefugee

part of me wishes I'd gone for the big party, but in the end it was a marquee in my parents' garden. And no photographer because i hate having my photo taken.

Seeing all the stories in this thread - which has been one of the better ones I've seen on MN, shows just how different we can all be and how we adapt ourselves - how we take the bits of tradition we want and ditch the rest. It's quite uplifting, actually.

I think you’re spot on right about that. Lots of people making their own ‘right’.

We had a big party, but I’m an immigrant and at least 30 people came from my home country for it, it was amazing.

And then we had a relaxed party in my home country, in my parents garden a month later which was actually just as good if not better - got the best of both worlds.

MarieIVanArkleStinks · 18/02/2022 12:06

@cuno

Gender neutral doesn't mean fairies and princesses aren't allowed... it means you don't "gender" the toys. So fairies and princesses are for both girls and boys, just as much as trucks and dinosaurs. Although a princess in and of itself is already gendered but you get my point?
'Gender' is a wholly damaging set of regressive social stereotypes. My son shoved a pram around all the time at nursery and had an Elsa dress when he was about 4.

The look of horror on my MiL's face when she saw it was fabulous!

CleoUK · 21/02/2022 00:24

@Trapiche

We just decided to get married while in bed. (22 years ago)
15 years ago for us
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