To think MN has it all wrong re proposals?

[alfayruz]

Inspired by a thread the other day, but also a general observation on here, I was thinking ... whenever anyone posts on MN about waiting for a proposal from their DP, you can guarantee hundreds of posts along the lines of ‘just propose to him....’ AIBU to think this is ridiculous because -

1. Nobody in actual real life does this

2. Having to propose to a man would be a massive turn off anyway so what is the point?

3. Even if you could still muster some kind of sexual attraction towards him, the bar is set at rock bottom before you even start - so why would you expect any initiative or effort from him on any other occasions or general life going forward?

AIBU?

@alfayruz

Yes but my point is, MN is different to what I observe in real life.

I am mid 40s. I don’t know anyone who hasn’t had a marriage proposal of some sort. I don’t know anyone who has been offended about being given an engagement ring.

I do wonder if MN threads are ‘confirmation bias’ in a way because it’s only people that are ‘against’ something (in this case proposals) or have objections that bother to post?

You could be on to something here. I was never proposed to; we made the decision to get married, we went ring shopping, we were engaged the random weekday evening the ring was ready from the jeweller. I find proposals a bit cringey, but I'm not aggressively against them and I've definitely never posted on MN to voice any sort of objection to them. I'm a pretty regular person so I'd hazard a guess there are other women out there like me.

"Can you quite those posts? and wtf is is 'non gendered' marriage?

Saying you don't adhere to gender stereotypes doesn't mean you are mocking those that do!

There was plenty of mocking coming from you though OP on the subject of men not proposing..........in fact this whole thread was started to mock those that don't go down the traditional proposal route."

I agree.

The op started a post saying that no one in real life sits down and has a conversation about marriage. That women want the big proposal and men have to be the ones proposing otherwise who would find them sexually attractive. Then when others disagree with her views the thread takes some weird and wonderful turns to try and back up her views.

If you want a big proposal that's fine. If it's not happening though it seems very daft to carry on waiting rather than having a conversation around marriage.

If you don't want a big proposal that's also fine. Doesn't make someone less of a woman. It's just individual taste. Some want to get married and some don't.

It's lack of communication that causes the issues the op has talked about. And to be honest thats not really an ideal situation when thinking about long term commitments.

If you can't have a basic conversation about long term plans how do you plan for children? Not just having a child but actually how you see that working. Childcare, work etc.

@oblada
@NoWordForFluffy

You to are just pick and choosing now what’s convenient to you.

Taking other person’s name is much begger traditional thing to do than proposal.

Jeez. I can’t believe you are serious!

Non- gendered marriage was the wrong term - sorry. But you know full-well what I mean anyway - ie. a marriage that shuns any hint of gender roles.

There was post after post saying, “ gender roles have no place in my marriage..,’ Fair enough.

But in any thread where a woman says she doesn’t want to propose it will go the same way on here - 1950s will of course be thrown in. ‘Trad wife’. ‘Princess.’ “Oh I wonder if it’s because they’re less educated ..,’

On MN, proposals, engagement rings, taking your husbands name, being a SAHM are just a few of the perfectly normal and valid choices (in real life) that are routinely mocked.

[quote CupOfNiceTea]@oblada
@NoWordForFluffy

You to are just pick and choosing now what’s convenient to you.

Taking other person’s name is much begger traditional thing to do than proposal.

Jeez. I can’t believe you are serious![/quote]
I don't agree. I had my father's name before. Why not my father in law's instead? Especially given our set up as I've outlined.
Waiting for a man to propose is in my view a lot more dis-empowering for women than the free and considered choice over a family name.
I just do not understand not discussing this as equal partners just like any other significant decision (family name being one, children, house etc). But again to each their own.

@UsernameIsNotAvailableRightNow

Geee I wonder how lesbians manage.

IME the more 'masculine' one proposes. If noth of you are equally femme or mask, I've not got a clue

I know one m/f couple where the woman proposed.

[quote CupOfNiceTea]@oblada
@NoWordForFluffy

You to are just pick and choosing now what’s convenient to you.

Taking other person’s name is much begger traditional thing to do than proposal.

Jeez. I can’t believe you are serious![/quote]
Picking and choosing what to cite now? You're just being ridiculous.

There was post after post saying, “ gender roles have no place in my marriage..,’ Fair enough.

I was one of those posters. I I think I actually said that gender stereotypes have no place in my marriage. I fully stand by that. Just like I won't stand for gender stereotyping in my work place and I challenge it when I see/experience it.

On MN, proposals, engagement rings, taking your husbands name, being a SAHM are just a few of the perfectly normal and valid choices (in real life) that are routinely mocked.

and working mothers aren't routinely vilified??

@alfayruz

Non- gendered marriage was the wrong term - sorry. But you know full-well what I mean anyway - ie. a marriage that shuns any hint of gender roles.

There was post after post saying, “ gender roles have no place in my marriage..,’ Fair enough.

But in any thread where a woman says she doesn’t want to propose it will go the same way on here - 1950s will of course be thrown in. ‘Trad wife’. ‘Princess.’ “Oh I wonder if it’s because they’re less educated ..,’

On MN, proposals, engagement rings, taking your husbands name, being a SAHM are just a few of the perfectly normal and valid choices (in real life) that are routinely mocked.

Can you not see the irony in you starting a post to mock others for choosing something different to you? Can you not actually see that sitting down and discussing marriage is a valid option? That a woman can propose to a man is also a valid option?

I had my father's name before. Why not my father in law's instead?

I always find this so curious. When does a woman ever get to own her own name, rather than it always being treated as the property of a man (and thus easy to transfer from one to another?)

Your post is as least refreshing in that you referred to it as your FIL’s rather than your husband’s.

But I’m serious: when does a woman get to say ‘this is my name’?

🍿🍿🍿

@SpinsForGin

There was post after post saying, “ gender roles have no place in my marriage..,’ Fair enough.

I was one of those posters. I I think I actually said that gender stereotypes have no place in my marriage. I fully stand by that. Just like I won't stand for gender stereotyping in my work place and I challenge it when I see/experience it.

I agree with this. None of my friends fall into the gender stereotype either.

And that's different from saying I do x in the house because I'm good at that and my partner isn't to I do x in the house because I'm female and he does x because he's male.

My partner does do most of the diy in the house. Not because he's male, but because he is a joiner and is better at it than me. I do all the painting and decorating though because I'm better at that than he is.

@alfayruz

“Nobody is saying that if a woman's genuine wants and preferences happen to be in line with traditions / gender stereotypes they are wrong or she should deny them to herself. “

Er..., did you read the thread?

Yes, I read it properly.

You don't seem willing or able to understand what I and others are explaining to you.

A simple example would be that if someone said "girls like pink because they're just wired to" then I would say to them I didn't believe that was true, I believe many girls grow up liking pink because of socialisation and gender expectations. That is not me saying that girls who like pink are stupid / wrong. You seem to be assuming saying the former is the same as saying latter. It's not.

@JassyRadlett

I had my father's name before. Why not my father in law's instead?

I always find this so curious. When does a woman ever get to own her own name, rather than it always being treated as the property of a man (and thus easy to transfer from one to another?)

Your post is as least refreshing in that you referred to it as your FIL’s rather than your husband’s.

But I’m serious: when does a woman get to say ‘this is my name’?

That is a good point and a bit of a grey area i suppose. For me it is genuinely my father in law's name, it cannot be traced further back lol he split his name and made one into a family name, which is not common in his culture. So i went with that, for various reasons (for ease, to keep my mother in law happy as accepting me in the family wasn't easy, to honour FILs memory as he passed away when we got married, to encourage my children to maintain their cultural heritage on this side of the family as we live in the UK, which is culturally closer to my background etc). I have absolutely no issue with women deciding to keep 'their' name, whether it is originally their mothers, father's or a mix. Many cultures do that. I just decided not to. My daughters (and I have 3) will decide for themselves. I don't feel strongly about it. I would feel more strongly if they expressed to me that they were waiting for their partner to propose. But again it would be their decision i suppose.

On MN, proposals, engagement rings, taking your husbands name, being a SAHM are just a few of the perfectly normal and valid choices (in real life) that are routinely mocked

What I generally see on mumsnet is:

Women complaining that he hasn't proposed yet, waiting around and sulking and dropping hints expecting it to happen. It's not mocking to therefore suggest they propose or that there are other more constructive and grown up ways to go about this. If it is oh so important that you receive the surprise proposal which you are not getting and you are really resentful about it, then just leave. 🤷‍♀️

People do challenge taking husband's name, and likewise giving the father's surname to your children, as the default. It is not really mocking to challenge this as a tradition, and especially when a woman gives the father's surname to the children then complain that she only did that in the hopes of getting married and taking his surname as well and now she wants to change it to her maiden name?

SAHMs complaining about pretty much being the husband's slave, doing everything and anything around the house, the husband does fuck all around the house or with the kids because it's the woman's job. And so many of these women are being financially and emotionally abused etc. Not really mocking to suggest that they leave, get a job and all the other advice.

Of course there will always be some mocking on either side. But who are you to get on your high horse about it when you have started this thread to do exactly that, mock women that made different choices to you? And to point out people mocking you on this thread, well what the fuck do you expect to be honest with your attitude? Of course people are going to say you're acting like a princess or being precious, because you've called their husbands pathetic and feeble and sexually unfuckable. And yes it is very 1950s to think that no-one is getting married without a surprise proposal from the man. Honestly, what do you expect?

But I’m serious: when does a woman get to say ‘this is my name?

I share your frustration and suspect we would both respond to that question: Me. Now. I’m frequently addressed as Mrs Hisname when I’m Mrs no one and have my own name, but wishing this were so doesn’t make it the case. My family name isn’t on loan to me any more than my brother’s is. It was bestowed upon me from birth and it denotes my blood ties, my connections, my history and my roots, for better or worse (and yes, it was often worse). But it’s mine.

I laugh particularly at two objections to this: one that it’s a choice between your father’s or father-in-law’s name so you’re shackled to the patriarchy regardless. Untrue. Your father-in-law’s name signifies a childhood, history and formative years that isn’t yours. Why would I shelve a name I’ve used for life to take on an alternative history.

The other is the bizarre objection ‘I’m still me, a name has nothing to do with identity!’ Of course it does. How else is a person identified if not by their name? It’s fundamental to you, even if you don’t particularly like it. Otherwise why do people guard it so jealously and get pissed off when someone misspells it or gets it wrong? By that logic, you could address me as Engelbert Humperdinck and wouldn’t turn a hair.

Incidentally, men are never the ones who try to put me back in my box for not relinquishing my own identity because I’ve chosen to commit to one partner for life.

That wasn't meant to say sexually unfuckable, just unfuckable!

I have absolutely no issue with women deciding to keep 'their' name.

Then why the scare quotes? It is theirs.

@MarieIVanArkleStinks

I have absolutely no issue with women deciding to keep 'their' name.

Then why the scare quotes? It is theirs.

Oh, of course it’s really their father’s name, though, curiously, the people who make this point with a ‘gotcha!’ air on here never feel their DH’s name is really their FIL’s.

@MarieIVanArkleStinks

I have absolutely no issue with women deciding to keep 'their' name.

Then why the scare quotes? It is theirs.

It's a matter of perception. I see my maiden name as my father's name and my husband's name as mine actually. Everyone will have a different perception. The quotes were just stylistic, not meant to direct that a particular perception was more valid than another.

Ok, so we have 4 children. 2 girls and 2 boys.

The elder girl was obsessed with princesses, fairies, ballet and anything sparky (particularly shoes) since she could express a preference. I didn’t have that stuff in the house. We’d be in the shopping mall and she’d toddle off into the shoe shop for pink sparkly shoes. Wouldn’t wear trousers. It’s too simplistic to say that was gender expectations and socialisation at the age of one. She has always been stereotypically feminine but it’s hardly held her back in life.

My other daughter, same house, same socialisation, could take or leave the sparkly princess stuff. She was more into animals from the off.

With the boys, the elder one would occupy himself with pretty much anything. He prefers solo activities like karate.

The younger one was something else and if he doesn’t have a lot of physical activity, he’s too much. As a baby, the way he played was totally different as everything he used to bang together snd every game was a battle. I took him to a psychologist once but she just said he’s fine. He did calm down fortunately. He’s into rugby and football and he needs that kind of contact sport to cope. In this way, he is like his dad, I think.

So they are 4 very different children. The very stereotypically ‘girly’ daughter literally ‘came out’ like that as far as I’m concerned. So no, I don’t believe gendered behaviour are always and only down to socialisation. The evidence is here in this house! Some people naturally conform to gender types than others. It’s just who they are as individuals.

Oh my god, you are a fucking idiot if you think your daughter was born into pink, sparkles and princesses. What a bizarre post!

Tbh you have really shown your attitudes on here about gender roles and stereotypes, so it's unsurprising your children picked them up from you.

Oh I see we’ve now moved onto names...,

To Jassy’s question - ‘when does a woman get to call a name her own?’ I think about it like this -

A distinction needs to be made between ‘owning’ and ‘origin.’

In terms of ‘origin,’ your name will be equally patriarchal whether you took it from your dad (by default, no choice at birth), or your husband (choice on marriage). If your name came from your mother, then you do not have a patriarchal name.

But in terms of ‘owning’ a name, of course any name you go by is YOUR name. It has to be. Make one up, take your husband’s, stay with the one you inherited from your father (or mother) - your name is what you go by.