To think MN has it all wrong re proposals?

[alfayruz]

Inspired by a thread the other day, but also a general observation on here, I was thinking ... whenever anyone posts on MN about waiting for a proposal from their DP, you can guarantee hundreds of posts along the lines of ‘just propose to him....’ AIBU to think this is ridiculous because -

1. Nobody in actual real life does this

2. Having to propose to a man would be a massive turn off anyway so what is the point?

3. Even if you could still muster some kind of sexual attraction towards him, the bar is set at rock bottom before you even start - so why would you expect any initiative or effort from him on any other occasions or general life going forward?

AIBU?

Yep - and it’s a sign that, in a world where the majority of women aren’t pregnant or breastfeeding more or less constantly for 20 years, those things and much that form part of gender stereotypes are about society’s reaction (and particularly men’s reaction) to those biological imperatives, rather than being biological imperatives themselves.

I think this is the key distinction that it is important to make.

I never said anything was innate. I said gender expectations are, to some extent, arisen through biological differences and the way humans have responded over time. But anyway..,,

One question though - if there was a woman who felt an overpowering urge to be with her children (stronger then anything else) - would you tell her that that instinct is fake? That she needs to wake up? That her instinct cannot be innate and she only feels like that because of how men respond to her biological imperative?

No? Why would you ever tell anyone that their opinion was fake? If you want to be with your children do, not sure why anyone would say otherwise? If you feel an overwhelming love for your partner/pet/etc., why would anyone deny you that? It’s certainly not what anyone is saying on here. Seems a strange sideways question to be honest?

if there was a woman who felt an overpowering urge to be with her children (stronger then anything else) - would you tell her that that instinct is fake?

I wouldn't say that it is fake. But I also would say that many of the expectations around motherhood, including those held by women, are social constructs that create societal and individual expectations, feelings, and behaviors.

One question though - if there was a woman who felt an overpowering urge to be with her children (stronger then anything else) - would you tell her that that instinct is fake? That she needs to wake up? That her instinct cannot be innate and she only feels like that because of how men respond to her biological imperative?

No, of course not but seneca has put it perfectly in this response....

But I also would say that many of the expectations around motherhood, including those held by women, are social constructs that create societal and individual expectations, feelings, and behaviors

“I wouldn't say that it is fake. But I also would say that many of the expectations around motherhood, including those held by women, are social constructs that create societal and individual expectations, feelings, and behaviors.“

Yes, do the woman is fully aware if all this. But still, for her, she knows it’s not just about societal expectations. She feels it’s an instinct from within her. What then? Should she deny how she feels? Tell herself her feelings don’t matter?

Nobody is telling anyone their feelings don't matter. Not one person has suggested this. If someone wants to stay at home with their children then that is their choice - the same applies to women AND men.

The only person who seems to be saying women’s feelings don’t matter is you OP, in your odd hypothetical questions. Nobody needs to deny how they feel, I’m not sure why you think anyone would? This is not what anybody is saying.

Because ultimately we are all part of society and society lives through us. We all know this. But still, how you feel is how you feel.

You only get one life and it’s not much time so, ultimately, does it matter why you feel the way you do? Surely all you can do is be as honest with yourself as you can and then own it. If you try to second-guess, suppress or diminish your own feelings, you will make yourself mentally ill.

Nobody is saying that if a woman's genuine wants and preferences happen to be in line with traditions / gender stereotypes they are wrong or she should deny them to herself.

People are trying to explain that expecting women and men to adhere to gender those stereotypes by default, and then saying that biology is the reason some people do so, rather than socialisation, is silly (as many people don't do so) and at times offensive (eg your what is the point of a man if he doesn't do Man Jobs comment).

@alfayruz

Because ultimately we are all part of society and society lives through us. We all know this. But still, how you feel is how you feel.

You only get one life and it’s not much time so, ultimately, does it matter why you feel the way you do? Surely all you can do is be as honest with yourself as you can and then own it. If you try to second-guess, suppress or diminish your own feelings, you will make yourself mentally ill.

You're agreeing with what everyone is saying here but expressing it as if you're arguing / as if they're saying anything different. Everyone has said to do what works for you individually. That's what everyone should do. So I'm not sure if you're just after a bit of a barney now!

“ Because ultimately we are all part of society and society lives through us. We all know this. But still, how you feel is how you feel.

You only get one life and it’s not much time so, ultimately, does it matter why you feel the way you do? Surely all you can do is be as honest with yourself as you can and then own it. If you try to second-guess, suppress or diminish your own feelings, you will make yourself mentally ill.”

It does matter why you feel how you do. If a woman was in an abusive relationship and was constantly drawn to men who abused her, so you not think it would be worthwhile for her to find out why and address this?

Also OP you massively underestimate the impact of societal expectations on how we feel and behave.

I don’t underestimate the impact of societal expectations. You have no idea.

“Nobody is saying that if a woman's genuine wants and preferences happen to be in line with traditions / gender stereotypes they are wrong or she should deny them to herself. “

Er..., did you read the thread?

@alfayruz

I don’t underestimate the impact of societal expectations. You have no idea.

Unfortunately that doesn't come across in your posts. You also seem to think those of us that state that societal expectations are key, are somehow trying to prevent women from making certain choices...which absolutely isn't the case.

Well, never mind, you will just keep telling me my feelings are essentially down to societal expectations. They can’t be innate.

Can you see how this can be interpreted as diminishing someone’s feelings?

@alfayruz

Well, never mind, you will just keep telling me my feelings are essentially down to societal expectations. They can’t be innate.

Can you see how this can be interpreted as diminishing someone’s feelings?

No I can't. I don't understand why that would offend you? If you are comfortable with the choices you've made in your life why does it matter? Nobody is trying to diminish your feelings. They are just as valid if they are influenced by biology or as a result of societal expectations.

Look at it from a different perspective. Is it not more offensive to suggest that biology is the main driver when it comes to choices linked to motherhood? Where does that leave those women who didn't feel that urge to stay at home?

@alfayruz

Well, never mind, you will just keep telling me my feelings are essentially down to societal expectations. They can’t be innate.

Can you see how this can be interpreted as diminishing someone’s feelings?

I agree with the posters that our feelings are very much driven by societal expectations, not biology, but I don't see how that would make anyone feel undermined. How is biology a more valid driver for you?

@alfayruz

“Nobody is saying that if a woman's genuine wants and preferences happen to be in line with traditions / gender stereotypes they are wrong or she should deny them to herself. “

Er..., did you read the thread?

Once again, I think you have a problem with reading comprehension.

Can you quote even one post that says this?

Never seen so much flannelling, self-contradiction, incomprehensible irrelevances, and totally tangential, irrelevant, inconsequential bollocks on one thread.

Even by MN standards this thread takes the annoying little biscuit icon to a whole new status. Here you go OP, have one, with sincerest congratulations!

There are many posts that mock women who don’t 100% aspire and subscribe to ‘non gendered’ marriages. Are you having a laugh? Not only on this thread, This is MN, after all.

Wtf is a non-gendered marriage? You’re just making shit up now .

@alfayruz

There are many posts that mock women who don’t 100% aspire and subscribe to ‘non gendered’ marriages. Are you having a laugh? Not only on this thread, This is MN, after all.

Can you quite those posts? and wtf is is 'non gendered' marriage?

Saying you don't adhere to gender stereotypes doesn't mean you are mocking those that do!

There was plenty of mocking coming from you though OP on the subject of men not proposing..........in fact this whole thread was started to mock those that don't go down the traditional proposal route.

@JassyRadlett

Wtf is a non-gendered marriage? You’re just making shit up now .

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