To think MN has it all wrong re proposals?

[alfayruz]

Inspired by a thread the other day, but also a general observation on here, I was thinking ... whenever anyone posts on MN about waiting for a proposal from their DP, you can guarantee hundreds of posts along the lines of ‘just propose to him....’ AIBU to think this is ridiculous because -

1. Nobody in actual real life does this

2. Having to propose to a man would be a massive turn off anyway so what is the point?

3. Even if you could still muster some kind of sexual attraction towards him, the bar is set at rock bottom before you even start - so why would you expect any initiative or effort from him on any other occasions or general life going forward?

AIBU?

Well it was such a tremendously idiotic thing to say. Again, what do you expect?

cuno - nobody else is swearing on here. Did you notice that?

Is it unladylike to swear?

@alfayruz

Ok, so we have 4 children. 2 girls and 2 boys.

The elder girl was obsessed with princesses, fairies, ballet and anything sparky (particularly shoes) since she could express a preference. I didn’t have that stuff in the house. We’d be in the shopping mall and she’d toddle off into the shoe shop for pink sparkly shoes. Wouldn’t wear trousers. It’s too simplistic to say that was gender expectations and socialisation at the age of one. She has always been stereotypically feminine but it’s hardly held her back in life.

My other daughter, same house, same socialisation, could take or leave the sparkly princess stuff. She was more into animals from the off.

With the boys, the elder one would occupy himself with pretty much anything. He prefers solo activities like karate.

The younger one was something else and if he doesn’t have a lot of physical activity, he’s too much. As a baby, the way he played was totally different as everything he used to bang together snd every game was a battle. I took him to a psychologist once but she just said he’s fine. He did calm down fortunately. He’s into rugby and football and he needs that kind of contact sport to cope. In this way, he is like his dad, I think.

So they are 4 very different children. The very stereotypically ‘girly’ daughter literally ‘came out’ like that as far as I’m concerned. So no, I don’t believe gendered behaviour are always and only down to socialisation. The evidence is here in this house! Some people naturally conform to gender types than others. It’s just who they are as individuals.

It's also far too simplistic to say 'they just came out that way'. You have 4 individuals who are are a product of their genetic make up with a heavy dose of socialisation thrown in there. Of course they will display individual preferences but you are kidding yourself if you think it's just 'Nature'.

Children are literally bombarded with messages about what it means to be a girl or a boy from the second they are born. You can't avoid it no matter how hard you try. Even the way people treat boys and girls and the language they use when talking about them is gendered - often in a subconscious level.

You might make a huge effort , as we did, to avoid this in our house but if they are interacting with the wider world these messages are unavoidable.

These messages tell us how society expects us to behave and that in turn has an impact on EVERYTHING. My particular specialism is career development..... from a very young age we can see societal expectations in relation to gender influencing career and education choices.

And don't be dramatic, I called you an idiot not a cunt.

You have nothing constructive to add to this thread cuno and you just sound horrible.

Rich coming from the woman who started a thread to bash people.
I've added plenty constructive but you are very selective with what you respond to. Never quite answered the question about race, for example.

I'd highly recommend reading 'The Gendered Brain' and 'Invisible Women' if you want further insight into the impact of societal expectations and stereotypes.

Spins - I know what you’re saying. I understand. But with this daughter it was quite marked and, as I say, she didn’t have that stuff in the house and they don’t watch TV at age 1!

Why do you keep going on about race? If you want a response, at least try keeping it vaguely relevant. You don’t sound with it.

@alfayruz

Spins - I know what you’re saying. I understand. But with this daughter it was quite marked and, as I say, she didn’t have that stuff in the house and they don’t watch TV at age 1!

But it's not just about TV!! Literally the way people speak to baby girls is different to how they speak to baby boys.

@alfayruz

Spins - I know what you’re saying. I understand. But with this daughter it was quite marked and, as I say, she didn’t have that stuff in the house and they don’t watch TV at age 1!

But it's not just about TV!! Literally the way people speak to baby girls is different to how they speak to baby boys.

“But it's not just about TV!! Literally the way people speak to baby girls is different to how they speak to baby boys.”

Oh sure. But why was my other daughter not like that though? Same parents. Same environment.

@alfayruz

“But it's not just about TV!! Literally the way people speak to baby girls is different to how they speak to baby boys.”

Oh sure. But why was my other daughter not like that though? Same parents. Same environment.

Because were not saying that individual preferences don't exist. Of course they do .....

But your example actually argues against biology being the main determining factor because if that were the case, wouldn't you daughters have the exact same interests?

@alfayruz

Why do you keep going on about race? If you want a response, at least try keeping it vaguely relevant. You don’t sound with it.

I'm not the only poster who asked you about race. You were claiming all social constructs including patriarchy is down to biology, so naturally people asked about race and you carefully ignored that besides "what's that got to do with male and female biology". You're the one that's been jumping from one bizarre tangent to another, but I'm the one not keeping things vaguely relevant? And I'm far more with it than anyone who believes a girl can be born with an innate interest in pink, sparkles and princesses and boys can be born with an innate interest in karate and rugby. I felt so exasperated by the stupidity of it all! And please remember the things you have said about men and women on here who don't adhere to your idea of a traditional proposal. But you clutch your pearls at someone calling you an idiot. Do you prescribe to #BeKind only when it suits you?

My other daughter, same house, same socialisation, could take or leave the sparkly princess stuff. She was more into animals from the off

You're doing that weird thing again where you're making the same point as me but presenting it defensively as if you disagree...

I've specifically said that some people will naturally have preferences that simply happen to tally with gender stereotypes and that others won't.

The fact some people tally with gender stereotypes doesn't mean that those stereotypes are due to them having either a vagina or penis, it's down to individual preferences.

It just happens that on top of individual preferences, some kids (not your daughter) will also be influenced by societal expectations to conform to gender stereotypes too. Which then means there are usually a larger number of girls 'into' pink and sparkly than not up to a certain age, because the group includes those who would have been into it anyway plus those who if they were born on a desert island that happened to have no gender stereotypes would have been meh about it but were born in a place where they see particular gender stereotypes aka pink = girly.

Your daughter didn't gravitate towards pink and sparkly because she happened to be born with a vagina. Your other daughter is proof that that isn't what happens.

You're literally making the same point as me but dressing it up as an opposing opinion for a reason I can't get my head around.

She has always been stereotypically feminine but it’s hardly held her back in life.

Again with the odd defensiveness, nobody has said your daughter liking pink will hold her back in life.

You sound so keen to argue!

@alfayruz

“But it's not just about TV!! Literally the way people speak to baby girls is different to how they speak to baby boys.”

Oh sure. But why was my other daughter not like that though? Same parents. Same environment.

Exactly! So it isn't down to biology is it, or both girls would be the same... you're proving the same point as those of us you think you disagree with.

I don’t say biology was the main determining factor. I simply said you can’t always ignore it. Let’s not go there again!

I don’t try and steer my kids away from anything though. I just go with it, as long as it doesn’t affect them at school. The girls were / will have no choice but to do all three sciences in their girls’ schools. One of the boys could drop a science in his school. I support them a lot with education and whatever their interests are. None of them are held back. The eldest has just got into Cambridge.

Riiight... it's not very clever to lie when we can read all your posts on this thread. They haven't gone away, you know?

And I'm not sure what accusation you think has been levelled at you to get so defensive about your children's education.

'Maiden' name. Kinell, now the thread really has plummeted into the murky depths ...

cuno - I have no idea what you’re on about and anyway, I tend not to engage with offensive, belligerent people like you. It’s pointless.

You did say it all eventually comes down to biology. Perhaps you explained what you meant poorly but that is what you said. People pointed out how social constructs and gender stereotype determine so much and you said:

Yes society determines social constructs.

And what is society composed of?

Humans.

And what drives humans?

Biology.

I honestly think you're not reading posts properly at this point. Your own or other people's!

Nobody at all has said your daughter will be held back in life because she likes pink.

Was this whole thread just an excuse for you to reveal your child got into Cambridge? If so you're much more Mumsnetty than you think!

On a serious note it is a fab achievement of theirs. Just funny you snuck it in as it's such a MN thing to do!

@alfayruz

cuno - I have no idea what you’re on about and anyway, I tend not to engage with offensive, belligerent people like you. It’s pointless.

Really? You've said far more offensive and belligerent things on this thread than me. 😵 I just think you don't like to engage when it suits you.

Nobody is suggesting that liking pink or sparkly things will hold your daughter back BUT that doesn't mean that that gender stereotypes aren't problematic.

They will have have influenced her career and education choices even if that was on a subconscious level.

Oh my god. We went through that this morning. I can’t do it again.

That post where I stayed ‘biology’ was in response to someone saying biology has nothing to do with social constructs - and therefore gender expectations.

I personally, don’t think the social construct of ‘gender’ evolved entirely in a vacuum. I think the biological fact that women are the childbearing sex has impacted the way gender expectations have evolved.

I am not talking about race Nor am I saying biology is the end all and be all and affects all aspects of society. I was responding to a specific poster (or two) at the time who were just saying - sex is not gender; gender is not biology; gender is a social construct and that’s all there is to it, etc etc etc.

I’m not explaining this again so just think whatever it suits you to think.