To think MN has it all wrong re proposals?

[alfayruz]

Inspired by a thread the other day, but also a general observation on here, I was thinking ... whenever anyone posts on MN about waiting for a proposal from their DP, you can guarantee hundreds of posts along the lines of ‘just propose to him....’ AIBU to think this is ridiculous because -

1. Nobody in actual real life does this

2. Having to propose to a man would be a massive turn off anyway so what is the point?

3. Even if you could still muster some kind of sexual attraction towards him, the bar is set at rock bottom before you even start - so why would you expect any initiative or effort from him on any other occasions or general life going forward?

AIBU?

@CupOfNiceTea

So all these modern women who aren’t passive willows or whatever, all also kept they’re last name and of cource children also has the woman’s last name? They must have surely, why would they want rigid gendered stereotypes? Loose their name, why, because the have a vagina?

We chose to change my surname and give the kids my husbands name. what is key though is that we could have decided to do it differently. Personally i don't mind the whole patriarchal name because I recognise men didn't give birth and it makes sense to me that they will take longer to adjust to the realities of being a parent and feeling that child belongs to them as they do not go through the physical process. So in that respect i don't mind giving the kids his name and helping that process along. I didn't feel like I needed to give my kids my father's name over their own father's so that worked for us. And for me it is was just easier for the family unit to have the same name. Again personal preference. I dont particularly like double barreled name as it just makes thing a bit difficult (nothing wrong with it i am just not keen). My kids already have long-ish first and middle names so that was enough for us.

Despite cultural differences between societies, now and through history, the vast majority of societies are essentially patriarchal at the core. It just manifests in different ways and to different degrees. It is unfortunate, but not a coincidence.

And you think this is due to biology?

Then what hope is there? Why bother fighting for equality if, due to biology, patriarchy will win?

@alfayruz

Yes but when I said ‘biology’ in that post, it was specifically in response to the poster before saying biology has nothing whatsoever to do with the way societal expectations have evolved.

That is hardly the same thing as me claiming that biology is responsible for everything! Christ on a bike.

Yeah, that poster didn’t say that either.

But great. We’re all on the same page as gender as a social construct that is not innately biological. That means women are not necessarily biologically, or innately, more suitable or drawn to certain roles/preferences as was the contention waaaay back upthread when we started down this rabbit hole.

Societal conditioning plays a very significant role that is quite apart from innate female genetics.

I dont particularly like double barreled name as it just makes thing a bit difficult (nothing wrong with it i am just not keen).

Your preference is obviously absolutely fine, but I just want to challenge this myth that double-barrelled names make things difficult. More than ten years in, I’m a different nationality from my kids as well, and the number of difficulties we’ve had is zero, I’m happy to report.

I don’t know what I can contribute 500 posts in, but I think the way me and DH decided to get married was pretty good. We had a conversation. I said ‘I think we should get married’ and he said ‘I agree’ and then we talked about it and set a date and planned the wedding together.

I don’t really understand making massive life decisions by hanging about waiting for a bloke to decide he’s picked you.

I think this is one of best threads I have read for a long time. It’s a shame the OP keeps flitting and backtracking, and won’t address some of the points that people have made. But the ‘against’ arguments have been calm, logical, we’ll researched, thought provoking and rational. Very ‘unmumsnet’, despite what the OP is trying to make out. It’s interesting how people react when their world view is challenged. There are so many posters on her that have given real world examples of why they disagree (I also don’t know anyone that had, or even wanted, a surprise proposal, it was just a logical step for both of them), yet we are still told ‘most women want a surprise proposal, gifts, etc., and most want a man to also act in this certain way’. It’s such a shame these gender stereotypes are still pushed and do no favours in the sex vs gender debate, except make those who don’t conform feel worthless and less of a man/woman.

@JassyRadlett

I dont particularly like double barreled name as it just makes thing a bit difficult (nothing wrong with it i am just not keen).

Your preference is obviously absolutely fine, but I just want to challenge this myth that double-barrelled names make things difficult. More than ten years in, I’m a different nationality from my kids as well, and the number of difficulties we’ve had is zero, I’m happy to report.

DH, DS and I have never had any issues either, with him having both our names, and both parents travelling a lot individually with him. And while DS has a five-syllable surname (both our names), and his name would indubitably sound better if he had one or other of our surnames individually, I think it would be ridiculous to put aesthetic considerations over all else.

Like those Mumsnetters who claim they've always loathed their 'maiden names' and were thrilled to change to their DH's gorgeous surnames on marriage. DH's surname is nicer than mine, but I would have retained mine even if it were Smellie/Longbottom/D'eath.

@oblada

Alright, and since you are then in a pretty traditional marriage, you then should understand that some women do want to be proposed to and that doesn’t make them stuck in the 1950’s or whatever.

[quote CupOfNiceTea]@oblada

Alright, and since you are then in a pretty traditional marriage, you then should understand that some women do want to be proposed to and that doesn’t make them stuck in the 1950’s or whatever.[/quote]
Why is my marriage traditional? Because i changed my name? That's a bit simplistic. My maiden name was my father's name. Why should i prefer it to my husband's father?

Funny story on this - it's my husbands father who actually started the family name thing in his family as it is not culturally common to have family name where he is from . So my surname is literally my father in law's name. It started with him. He was a fantastic man. My father's name is my father's name but also his father and father before him etc.
My father in law passed away the day of our wedding sadly so in a way i am honouring his memory.

None of this makes my marriage traditional.
I know some women want to be proposed. Good on them. Do I understand that urge? Not really. Do i respect it? Yes of course it's their choice entirely (well, influenced by our society of course).

@JassyRadlett

I dont particularly like double barreled name as it just makes thing a bit difficult (nothing wrong with it i am just not keen).

Your preference is obviously absolutely fine, but I just want to challenge this myth that double-barrelled names make things difficult. More than ten years in, I’m a different nationality from my kids as well, and the number of difficulties we’ve had is zero, I’m happy to report.

That's good for you. For me it is too faffy. But maybe because my kids name are already pretty long (different culture) so it wouldn't seem fair to also give them a double barrel surname. And I can't say my name and my husband's (different national and both not British) would sound good together.

Today 08:31 SpinsForGin

Despite cultural differences between societies, now and through history, the vast majority of societies are essentially patriarchal at the core. It just manifests in different ways and to different degrees. It is unfortunate, but not a coincidence.

And you think this is due to biology?

Then what hope is there? Why bother fighting for equality if, due to biology, patriarchy will win?

Once again and for the final time - no I don’t think ‘everything is due to biology.’ . I just don’t think you can totally ignore it either.

If women didn’t give birth and breastfeed babies, it’s patently obvious that the concept of ‘gender’ would have evolved differently through history.

I don’t know why that’s such a shocking concept for some people. If you’re going to fight the patriarchy, there no point being in denial about why we are where we are.

But giving birth and breastfeeding is a very small fraction of my life.

That doesn’t explain why I wasn’t encouraged to study science as a 10 year old. Or why I got groped on a bus in my teens. Or wolf whistled. Or why people expect my husband to ‘babysit’ our kids and are amazed that he does more.

As someone WELL past the birth and breastfeeding stage, I am amazed by the 50 year olds on MN who do everything for their husbands and their kids who are not small babies while trying to hold down part time jobs (because childcare is always the woman’s problem). And carrying all the invisible load of remembering World Book Day and birthday parties and all the rest.

What any of that has to do with my boobs and vagina I don’t know. Society (broadly) has taken a brief period in a woman’s life when she is tied down and vulnerable to condemn her to the domestic sphere and have very low expectations of men in that regard. So MANY 20-30 year olds without kids on MN who do the bulk of the housework. WHY?!

Finally those same 20-30 year olds doing the bulk of the housework are also agonising that their partners they live with more often than not are not proposing to them with a shiny ring. So they are waiting and hoping while cooking and cleaning and trying to be the perfect girlfriend and wishing for that special day.
I don’t blame the women. I blame society that even in 2022 thinks that this is how young women (mostly sans kids) should value themselves.

I don’t mean you personally, MangshorJhol! I’m not talking about individuals in the here and now. I’m talking about women’s traditional gender role as caregivers which has evolved historically and has generally been in evidence in all societies globally, to a greater or lesser degree. It stems from the fact that they are the ones who give birth and breastfeed. In times gone by, they would have been more ‘housebound’ as a result and then other ‘gender expectations’ get piled on - housework, cooking and whatever.

If women didn’t give birth or breastfeed - let’s pretend for the sake of argument babies were delivered by the postman to both parents ready to go - then the gendered expectations on women in relation to the domestic sphere might well have developed differently.

Once again and for the final time - no I don’t think ‘everything is due to biology.’ confused. I just don’t think you can totally ignore it either.

Nobody is ignoring biology. You, however, are placing far too much importance on biology and too little importance on societal influences. If you actually research the history and origins of the patriarchy you will see that it developed out of particular societal structures. While biology might be used to explain the division of labour in early society, patriarchy as we know it today was a social construction and one that actually has no place in modern society.
There is no biological need for men to hold the power....

If women didn’t give birth and breastfeed babies, it’s patently obvious that the concept of ‘gender’ would have evolved differently through history.

I'm not sure I fully agree with this. The oppression of women is not just about childbirth and breastfeeding. There is so much more to it that that.

I don’t know why that’s such a shocking concept for some people. If you’re going to fight the patriarchy, there no point being in denial about why we are where we are.

I'm not in denial. It's my job to understand this!

Why is my marriage traditional? Because i changed my name?

Yes.

@CupOfNiceTea

Why is my marriage traditional? Because i changed my name?

Yes.

Bit simplistic there, @CupOfNiceTea.

I changed my name, but also proposed, went back to work FT while DH was a SAHD, and I earn far more than him. He also does most of the cooking and laundry and is still the primary carer for the kids. I probably do a bit more cleaning, to balance it out. One element of tradition does not necessarily mean the whole shebang is traditional, IMO.

@CupOfNiceTea

Why is my marriage traditional? Because i changed my name?

Yes.

That's a very simplistic approach to marriage and tradition. If me and my husband followed tradition particularly closely we wouldn't even be together. And him having a family name to 'share' with me is anything but traditional in his culture. The fact that we got married in the first place is probably more 'traditional' than our choice of family name, which is based on our specific circumstances.

But I wasn’t talking about myself. I am talking about all the young women who haven’t given birth or breastfed who are still tied into traditional gendered roles. I find that all quite depressing.

I certainly never said there is a biological need for men to hold the power, Spins.

I’m hardly trying to justify the patriarchy. Please try to understand that. I’m simply saying that it has been a lot easier for men to devise social constructions (religions, laws etc) to keep women in the domestic sphere because women are the childbearing sex, than it would have been if they were not. Yes, of course there is more to female oppression than this and nobody would claim otherwise - but still, it’s a basic factor.

Another reason men may have oppressed women through history is simply because they can, as they’re physically stronger on the whole. Aggression as a result of testosterone is another factor. Cue a whole load of social constructs to protect women from men, but which simultaneously oppress women.

@MangshorJhol

But I wasn’t talking about myself. I am talking about all the young women who haven’t given birth or breastfed who are still tied into traditional gendered roles. I find that all quite depressing.

Yep - and it’s a sign that, in a world where the majority of women aren’t pregnant or breastfeeding more or less constantly for 20 years, those things and much that form part of gender stereotypes are about society’s reaction (and particularly men’s reaction) to those biological imperatives, rather than being biological imperatives themselves.

Technology has been a game changer, hasn’t it? When you can’t keep women vulnerable due to uncontrolled childbearing (changed by contraception) or when you really need them to do ‘man stuff’ (changed by the technology that enabled global warfare with mass male conscription), all sorts of aspects that were previously thought to be innate to women are exposed as being much more externally-driven.

Yep - and it’s a sign that, in a world where the majority of women aren’t pregnant or breastfeeding more or less constantly for 20 years, those things and much that form part of gender stereotypes are about society’s reaction (and particularly men’s reaction) to those biological imperatives, rather than being biological imperatives themselves.

Exactly the point I was making.

Technology has been a game changer, hasn’t it? When you can’t keep women vulnerable due to uncontrolled childbearing (changed by contraception) or when you really need them to do ‘man stuff’ (changed by the technology that enabled global warfare with mass male conscription), all sorts of aspects that were previously thought to be innate to women are exposed as being much more externally-driven.

I absolutely agree with this!

Wow. I know. Pointless commentAlert. But it really is shit like this that stops progress. Noone is going to handover power. Women have to start just taking charge, that includes of their own lives. Want to get married to one particular person? then propose, unless of course you don't already know what the answer is then - yikes.

I've read loads of responses and I still cannot understand why the OP thinks it's unattractive? But i guess it take all sorts.

I mean, none of this is to say that the impact of a social construct on our attitudes, beliefs, values or behaviours are any less real, or difficult for us to overcome. We’re heavily conditioned and socialised to think and act in a certain way.

But understanding that these things aren’t genetically innate to women is a really important step in starting to change those structures and systems, and our responses to them.