To think MN has it all wrong re proposals?

[alfayruz]

Inspired by a thread the other day, but also a general observation on here, I was thinking ... whenever anyone posts on MN about waiting for a proposal from their DP, you can guarantee hundreds of posts along the lines of ‘just propose to him....’ AIBU to think this is ridiculous because -

1. Nobody in actual real life does this

2. Having to propose to a man would be a massive turn off anyway so what is the point?

3. Even if you could still muster some kind of sexual attraction towards him, the bar is set at rock bottom before you even start - so why would you expect any initiative or effort from him on any other occasions or general life going forward?

AIBU?

Anyway. Thanks for the thread. I’m off to bed.

But again, we are society. So it’s the same thing.

You keep saying this as if it’s an immutable truth, but there’s not actually much (if any) basis for it.

Who is ‘we’? If it’s biologically-driven, why do societies differ so much by place and time?

And it’s not ‘the same thing’ or the outcomes would be identical. They aren’t.

Society is one of the factors that influence our behaviours, attitudes and beliefs. We are born into a particular societal and cultural context and it influences our development. As individuals and as a group, we influence that construct and it influences us; some of us will have more impact on it than others.

You seem to be totally ignoring the other non-gender based social constructs mentioned - why? Either social constructs are entirely biologically driven, or they’re not.

Women’s attitudes, feelings, beliefs around gender roles are as much driven by men’s reactions to their biology than their biology itself (and that’s ignoring pink/blue, STEM v humanities, whatever.) That’s something that exists outside their individual biology.

I am starting to think though that you are using ‘biology’ to encompass absolutely everything that humans do and the way they experience it - ie if it involves the brain, it’s biological. Which will take us in a very circular way as there is no way for anything to exist outside of biology.

Where did patriarchy come from if not humans?

Not everything done or created by humans is the result of their innate biology. Our development is also affected by our environment, our experiences, and by the culture and society we exist within - and therefore our behaviours are influenced by much more than the genes we were born with.

@JassyRadlett

Where did patriarchy come from if not humans?

Not everything done or created by humans is the result of their innate biology. Our development is also affected by our environment, our experiences, and by the culture and society we exist within - and therefore our behaviours are influenced by much more than the genes we were born with.

@JassyRadlett wins the internet.

Seriously though this has been one of the most effective takedowns of “I want men to be men and women to be women because, er, biology” that I’ve read. I really hope this thread has thread some light on this.

Look DH is far more romantic than I am. I am really not. But we are one of those ‘no proposal’ folks. Knew we wanted to get married at 22. DH was heading to med school and I was off to do my PhD so we decided to get married just before his residency. So we did. We have been together 20 years and I don’t and didn’t find him sexually attractive because he didn’t perform a medieval ritual from another culture (we are Asian anyway).

Our decision wasn’t a performatively feminist one. We couldn’t give a shit about what other people thought and did.

He is incredibly kind, thoughtful, an equal dad and partner. Has made career sacrifices for my career so I didn’t fall behind when I had kids. I still find him incredibly attractive.

I also find the idea of public proposals quite twee and far more performative than two people deciding lovingly to spend the rest of their life together. In fact proposals are entirely performative.

My DH proposed when we were living together and had a child. In ordering to properly trigger MN, I must inform you that he also asked my dad for permission first.

I also find the idea of public proposals quite twee and far more performative than two people deciding lovingly to spend the rest of their life together. In fact proposals are entirely performative.

Absolutely. The standard proposal (as featured in Hollywood) is a case study in cringe. It would actually make me think twice about marrying someone I otherwise loved if they did that whole routine.

Also I think what attracts me to DH most is that I am 100% his equal. Of course I carried his babies and birthed them and fed them. This is why it has never occurred to him to NOT wake up at night and help, or not do household tasks, or not be an equal. Frankly I managed to breastfeed because of how much he did in the early weeks. I basically sat around and fed and he did everything else. For instance, when having a small child pushed my career back he had the option of going for a job that would mean mega bucks but never see your family and wouldn’t be so easy for me location wise. He turned it down, (and then later turned down a similar job a few years later for similar reasons) and has done everything possible to help my career flourish AND be an equal parent. He is ridiculously successful but not at the cost of us.

He has flaws (stubborn mule etc) but in the 20 years I have known him he’s never said ever ‘we are going to make X decision as a family because I am a man/you are a woman.’ For instance, he’s on the school PTA (the US version) not me. It wasn’t my job to sort out childcare. We did it together. It isn’t my job alone to remember who needs to be when and where. It isn’t my job alone to make breakfast, lunch and dinner, do the dishwasher, put out clothes, keep the house tidy etc etc.

I find that incredibly sexy.

Ffs. Someone makes the assertion “gender is purely a social construct, it has nothing to do with biology.’

I say that I believe it’s not as clear cut as that and that SOME (SOME!!!) gendered behaviours will have been somewhat indirectly affected / shaped / engendered by biological differences between men and women (I cited hormone differences and the fact women’s experience of childbirth differs that men’s).

Then - naturally in MN - this is twisted and apparently I am arguing that EVERYHING is down to biology

People then feel the need to go into an explanation that “Social constructs are affected by more than biology.’ Well, no shit Sherlock! Who would have guessed it?

This place is mental.

Of course women’s experience of childbirth is different.
But my biology doesn’t make me a better cleaner or cook or washer upper of dishes or EVEN, a better parent.
Men who choose not to be equal partners are choosing not to do so. And there is nothing biological about it.

I breastfed my kids because I could biologically do it. As a consequence in the first six weeks or so DH did absolutely everything else (esp with DS1 who was a Velcro baby).

The gendered roles we choose to play that are NON biological are very much social constructs.

@WulyJmpr

I proposed to my husband when I was 25. We were and still are equal partners in our marriage so it was done in the spirit of that I suppose. I proposed on a Saturday afternoon in the living room of our rental flat as I knew he wouldn't like the 'pressure' of everyone watching if we were in a public place.

It surprises me how feminism goes out the window in society with marriage proposals. A woman should feel she can ask as much as her husband also should have feel he can. Not waiting around like some sort of princess. If you know what you want then seize the day.

@WulyJmpr

Since you brought up feminism:
Did you keep your last name, or maybe he took yours?
Do you have kids?
Who’s name they have?

@alfayruz

Ffs. Someone makes the assertion “gender is purely a social construct, it has nothing to do with biology.’

I say that I believe it’s not as clear cut as that and that SOME (SOME!!!) gendered behaviours will have been somewhat indirectly affected / shaped / engendered by biological differences between men and women (I cited hormone differences and the fact women’s experience of childbirth differs that men’s).

Then - naturally in MN - this is twisted and apparently I am arguing that EVERYHING is down to biology

People then feel the need to go into an explanation that “Social constructs are affected by more than biology.’ Well, no shit Sherlock! Who would have guessed it?

This place is mental.

@alfayruz you said upthread (I quote): "What drives humans? biology."

You can't have it both ways.

If you come onto the internet and basically claim men who don't propose to their partners are soft pantywaists and women who do propose have no sex drive you have to be prepared to be challenged on this regressive bollocks.

A pragmatic mixture

You… you know we can go back and read your previous posts, right?

I was more thinking about how and why certain gendered expectations may have evolved through human history in the particular way they have, MangshorJhol.

Of course it’s not the case that your biology means you are a better cook / cleaner whatever.

Yes but when I said ‘biology’ in that post, it was specifically in response to the poster before saying biology has nothing whatsoever to do with the way societal expectations have evolved.

That is hardly the same thing as me claiming that biology is responsible for everything! Christ on a bike.

Also didn’t take my husband’s last name.
He didn’t take mine either.

I have a VERY hard to pronounce name AND last name. My last name is hard for people of my cultural background to pronounce let alone others. So their names have my surname as a ‘middle’ name. DH’s surname is very easy to pronounce. My life would be much much easier if I had changed my last name! Then I would have just an unpronounceable first name…

Eh? DH and I didn't really do any kind of proposal, we got together, spoke about whether to have kids, then once we decided we wanted them, we discussed whether marriage was sensible.

Plenty of romance in other areas of our relationship but marriage is about as sexy as taking out insurance for me!

The whole romance sweep you off your feet thing is daft. Marriage is a legal arrangement about the allocation of property. And you get to have a party if you want.

@GrendelsGrandma

Eh? DH and I didn't really do any kind of proposal, we got together, spoke about whether to have kids, then once we decided we wanted them, we discussed whether marriage was sensible.

Plenty of romance in other areas of our relationship but marriage is about as sexy as taking out insurance for me!

The whole romance sweep you off your feet thing is daft. Marriage is a legal arrangement about the allocation of property. And you get to have a party if you want.

Perhaps people's perceptions of marriage are at the heart of the proposal thing?

Those who are focused primarily on the wedding might see a grand proposal as an essential element of the whole performance.

Those who are focused primarily on the marriage as a legal agreement between two people might be more likely to just sit down and have a pragmatic discussion about it.

@alfayruz

Ffs. Someone makes the assertion “gender is purely a social construct, it has nothing to do with biology.’

I say that I believe it’s not as clear cut as that and that SOME (SOME!!!) gendered behaviours will have been somewhat indirectly affected / shaped / engendered by biological differences between men and women (I cited hormone differences and the fact women’s experience of childbirth differs that men’s).

Then - naturally in MN - this is twisted and apparently I am arguing that EVERYHING is down to biology

People then feel the need to go into an explanation that “Social constructs are affected by more than biology.’ Well, no shit Sherlock! Who would have guessed it?

This place is mental.

Your arguments yesterday did read as though you believed everything was down to biology......🤷🏼‍♀️

However, gender is a social construct. It is sociological as opposed to biological. The characteristics associated with a specific gender vary between societies and cultures and change over time which makes it difficult to say it's down to biology.

That isn't ignoring the biological sex differences between men and women but sex and gender are two different things.

So all these modern women who aren’t passive willows or whatever, all also kept they’re last name and of cource children also has the woman’s last name?
They must have surely, why would they want rigid gendered stereotypes?
Loose their name, why, because the have a vagina?

Yes I agree that sex and gender are different things. Where we differ (and will have to agree to disagree), is that historically, I don’t believe gender and sex have always necessarily been fundamentally discrete entities.

Despite cultural differences between societies, now and through history, the vast majority of societies are essentially patriarchal at the core. It just manifests in different ways and to different degrees. It is unfortunate, but not a coincidence.

That’s not me saying it should be this way. I’m just saying what I see.

@SoLoveless2022, I’m not the poster you asked, but as another person who got married after a conversation, no, I never considered changing my name, which I think is a ridiculous, reactionary idea, yes, we have a child, and he has both our surnames. (As do about half his class, judging by his class list.)

I will point out that as I said the kids have my last name as a middle name, my last name is ALSO patriarchal. It’s my dad’s last name not my mother’s. Weirdly and coincidentally my mother’s maiden name and DH’s last name is the same. (We are not white British).

In my work place I don’t actually know a single woman (admittedly I am in a academic department) who changed her last name. There are a couple of older women with double barrelled names. In my social circle it is certainly far more unusual to change your last name than it is not.

I know somebody who booked a venue, chose a ring )prob paid for it too), organised invitations then arranged a night out and instructed him to
Propose

They got married. Take control ladies